50-70 Gov't

[Jokester]

Awesome! looks like maybe some nasty hard fouling build up was the cause of the issue.

Hopefully you can get her all cleaned up and slug it again to get your real measurements, then you are on your way to success.

old guns usually need a good bit of cleaning and care, some even have special needs, hopefully all your old timer needed was a good scrubbing.

I wonder if this is over 100 year old lead or just the previous owners?
Any suggestions for a bore cleaner? I was going to get either birtchwood casey or hoppes foaming bore cleaner.
And again, thank you for all the help!

EDIT: just looked at the stickied thread in gunsmithing about deleading. Would the Chore-Boy Copper pads be safe to use?

[jugulater]

Yes, the chore-boy method is fine. you could very well be dealing with 100 years worth of junk, theres no telling what has been fired down that barrel since it was produced. my 50-70 had a TON of junk in the barrel, it was so bad it looked like a smoothbore, after a good bit of cleaning it turned out to have strong rifling with some mild pitting running the length of the barrel.

I use Ballistol for everything, including deleading, but I figure the Hoppes Foaming bore cleaner should work too.

it might be worth the hassle to pull the whole gun down, it may have a ton of gunk hiding in the action, rolling blocks will function fine, even if full of desert sand, i learned that lesson from a Egyptian Rolling Block..

[krems]

Joke,
If you have leading get the chore boy copper pads....I use them myself. Save your self a lot of grief as they really knock the lead out. Use one of your old brushes and wrap the copper around the brush. Gets the lead out really quick. I use Hoppes but any of the cleaners should work. Hopefully your bore cleans up nice. I hate leaded bores....what a PIA to clean. That's why I like shooting the old rifles with Black powder- soft bullets - and SPG lube. I rarely have any lead build up only BP fouling. If I do get leading I then use a gas checked bullet with BP and that usually cures the leading. Keep us posted!

krems

[krems]

Jug,
i was typing as you posted...didn't mean to repeat what you said!

krems

[Jokester]

Jugulator,
why is it that I hear a lot of these rifles are leaded like crazy? I know that using an undersized bullet is a factor but why are so many people using undersized bullets? Am I missing something?
And do you use the ballistol straight up or dilute it?
And I broke down mine before I cleaned it and it literally looked like they used industrial grease to lube the action!

Krems,
Like a brass bristle brush, or a jag?
And whats your opinion on pyrodex rs? I couldn't find goex around where I live and was wondering if it was worth the $25 dollar hazmat fee to get it shipped.
And, both of you sorry for all the questions, but a gas checked bullet with bp? I thought the bullet was supposed to expand and gas checks prevent that? Not questioning you, just genuinely curious.

[krems]

I use an undersized brass brush and wrap the copper pad material around it so it is a snug fit in the barrel. I have never used Pyrodex so I couldn't comment on it. I like the Swiss BP. I shoot a lot of antique Winchester rifles and only like to use black powder with them. Some of the bores I've encountered are very rough. They will lead no matter what alloy cast bullet or type of powder you use. On the really bad bores if I use a 20-1 alloy with a gas check sized to my bore diameter I can minimize the leading and get repeatable accuracy. The copper gas check must act as a scraper of some sort ???.. I don't like using GC bullets with BP but some rifles don't give you any choice. My favorite rifle to shoot is a Win 1876 45-75 carbine. I use a GC bullet in it all the time w/ BP and cleaning the rough bore is a breeze. On the other hand......I wouldn't dare shoot a copper gas check bullet down one of my Shiloh Sharps rifles. The bores are mint in those rifles. Every gun is a little bit different. That's what makes shooting and reloading for them fun. The quest for the perfect load to turn that rifle into a tack driver. Once you get the load figured out you need to find another rifle and begin the process all over...then repeat etc...

krems

[StrawHat]

Use one of the 20 gauge brushes you were considering tossing. Just wrap the chore boy around the spent bristles. Basically making a new improved bristle brush.

I used chore boy to clean my 1866 trapdoor. Seems like it took a week! Not really but much longer than any other oldie I have cleaned. It is now a good shooter.

Kevin

[jugulater]

in the 50-70 Governments case is was a decently common cartridge in its time and a good amount of guns were made, so many in fact that Ammo was produced into the mid 1930s, then production stopped, and all these perfectly serviceable guns were suddenly obsolete. The 50-70 has been at the mercy of the reloader for 80 years, and alot of the time boolits anywhere between .510 and .512 were fired down barrels usually measuring about .515, and the result was alot of leading.

its also possible that the later made Ammo was smokless and used .512 boolits, im not really sure.

[varsity07840]

Well welcome to the Forum, i also shoot a New York State Roller In 50-70, but mine was sporterized back in the day.

That Lee Mold is perfect for the slow twist these early guns have and my NYS sporter loves it, mine drops a bit fat at around .516-.517. the only other mold i would use is the 450Grn hollow base that NOE makes for the 50-70, as I believe it was specifically made for these antques.

As for Dies i use a lyman set that has a custom made expander plug that perfectly fits my boolits, and i turn the sizing die way out because it sizes the brass way too much. But my lyman set is pretty old and I haven't used any newer lyman dies.

I would suggest Slugging your barrel just to see what your Grooves and bore are, these old guns vary all over the place.

There was a book called The 50-70 Shooters Handbook but midway says its been discontinued.. i guess ill have to go dig mine out and read through it...

I shoot a 3 groove converted '63 Sharps and an 1868 TD. Groove depth on both are .515. I use the Lee 450 gr Government sized .516 and have no trouble getting them into the cases using a Lyman die set. I use Bell and Starline brass. I anneal the Starlines. I crimp just enough to take the bell off the case mouth.

Duane

[jugulater]

I would love to get ahold of a Shootable Converted Sharps, the couple ive seen were in horrible shape.

you guys need to post pics of all these guns!

i totally forgot to mention what brass i use, i use starline cases, but i have like 15 Bertnam cases. the bertnam stuff is weird, and expensive, but works. starline is cheaper and works better for me.

[Jokester]

I have officially lost my mind. I have spent hours scrubbing the bore with jb and the chore boy. Slugged the barrel and still keep getting a tight reading of .506! If I let the bullet spin freely between the calipers then they get pushed out to .511! I'm not sure if I'm using the calipers wrong or if they're messed up but I am losing it! Patch after patch comes out dirty and I keep scrubbing but no change. I'm starting to doubt if this rifle is even a 50-70, maybe its some random Swedish 12.7!

[jugulater]

Measure something that you know the size of, or check those slugs against another set of calipers, because im sure those calipers are wonky.

id suggest more scrubbing and measurement checking.

you could try to measure the rifling at the muzzle, just too see what you get.

[Jokester]

So I checked a .440 roundball and got .4405.
I checked 1/8 drill bit, got .125 exactly.
Checked the rifling at the muzzle, got .5065 and that was tight.

[sharab85]

Jokester,

I would suggest getting some cerrosafe and using it to cast the muzzle and chamber end of your rifle it is much easier than slugging and I think you can get more reliable results. I used to slug all of my barrels like you have been doing but after I screwed up the crown on one I decided to try cerrosafe and loved it. The only thing I will warn you about is that if you bore has any pitting it can make it hard to extract the casting and make sure and follow the directions.

Now I have a question of my own, I see alot of people are recommending that you just lightly crimp case or even use no crimp at all and I have seen that recommended before but I have also read that having a good crimp on PB loads can help pressure build up and you get better powered burn and bullet bump. Which one is correct? I am just shooting from the hip but I think I read about crimping helping pressure build up in "Loading Cartridges for Original 45-70 Springfield" I will check when I get home.

Thanks,

Shawn

[jugulater]

At this point a chamber and Muzzle cast is in order.

as for the crimp helping pressure to build up, it is true, but crimping can deform the boolit and reduce accuracy. its a trade off, Velocity or accuracy. There is a sweet spot between the two though.

im pretty sure the army Crimped their shellls for durability reasons.

[varsity07840]

I have officially lost my mind. I have spent hours scrubbing the bore with jb and the chore boy. Slugged the barrel and still keep getting a tight reading of .506! If I let the bullet spin freely between the calipers then they get pushed out to .511! I'm not sure if I'm using the calipers wrong or if they're messed up but I am losing it! Patch after patch comes out dirty and I keep scrubbing but no change. I'm starting to doubt if this rifle is even a 50-70, maybe its some random Swedish 12.7!

You can't get an accurate measurement on slug from a barrel with an odd number of grooves with a caliper or standard micrometer. You need an anvil type micrometer. There is a gentleman who frequents this forum who measured a 3 groove slug for me. He may be able to help you. His member name is texasmac. Try sending him a PM.

Duane

[boommer]

Jokester What makes you sure you have a NYS RB,on top of your hammer you should have checkering in the form of a shield,next when you pull the hammer back and drop the block then roll the block up the hammer will go into the safe position and you will have to pull the hammer back to fire.The left side of the receiver a B stamp and the barrel should have a S on the left side by the receiver.

[Jokester]

Again, thank you for commenting.
I really do appreciate the help!

Jugulator: I contacted the previous owner and he said he never actually sized the bullets, he just lubed them and stuffed them into the brass. Maybe seating and crimping the bullets explained why when I pulled the bullets they measured .412. He said he was going to look into finding his load data and digging up some old targets to see if he can help me further.
Sharab85: I ordered some cerrosafe from midway so hopefully it will get here soon and maybe that will help determine my true bore size.
Varsity07840: I didn't think of that at all. My slugs show 5 grooves. I'm gonna see if I can find a machine shop or a friend who as or has access to an anvil micrometer or other measuring equipment to see if that'll help and to see if my calipers are wonkyjawed.
boommer: Hammer and breech block both have the shield cross-hatching. The safety mechanism works properly and the serial number on the receiver and the trigger assembly match. A B is found on the barrel bands and a B with 30 stamped over it on the barrel, left side close to the receiver. "30th SEPT Co" is found on the buttstock with "93" underneath. Patent dates on the top of the tang. Serial number on the side of the tang. 30 stamped on the left side of the receiver close to the barrel. Also 30 on the right side of the barrel, close to the receiver.

Thank you all very much for your input! It is greatly appreciated!

Attached are two pictures of the "30"s

[jugulater]

my gun has got a bunch of Rs, Bs, and Ps, but no 30s or anything else besides a couple mistaching serial numbers, all in the 600 range.

the sheild cross-hatching sounds just like what my gun has.

i sure hope thats .512 not .412...

[Jokester]

my gun has got a bunch of Rs, Bs, and Ps, but no 30s or anything else besides a couple mistaching serial numbers, all in the 600 range.

the sheild cross-hatching sounds just like what my gun has.

i sure hope thats .512 not .412...

Yes, .512 sorry typo.
Maybe the 30 was stamped on because of the company?