Marksmanship and casting

[jsizemore]

The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
The guy with his tongue cut out would disagree with that if he could say anything.

Most folks don't want to or don't have the time to spend behind the trigger. There is no substitute for trigger time.

[stubbicatt]

I can appreciate the thought and time it took for OP to offer us his well written and well reasoned posting. The well executed shot is a skill which must be honed and concentrated on in practice. Being able to cast our bullets for low cost enables us to practice more. A well thought out training regimen is certainly better than just blasting our way to some level of proficiency. Skill derived from mindful repetitive motions, repetitive mindset, careful evaluation of skill set and assessment of where improvement may be had is perhaps more important than shooting a bullet hose.

I can't say that casting has made it more economical to learn to shoot better. Rather I think recent changes in firearms preferences has necessitated casting. The recent shift of focus to single shot rifles in my life has made me a more consistent offhand shot. Since the rifles I'm using require cast bullets, I'm back swinging a ladle over a hot pot again.

I have always preferred to shoot cast bullets where they are suitable, mostly because bore cleaning is so much easier, but also because I get great satisfaction shooting my bullets accurately. And to some extent I enjoy the act of casting bullets.

[Blackwater]

The tone used by the OP is why I rarely bother visiting here any more. Calling folks out as "newbies", implying that someone new to casting isn't practicing enough. Who needs blowhards like that? Not me.

No aspersions meant at all, Rockwell! After all, we've ALL been newbies, and I'm planning to get seriously into shooting cast in rifles very soon, and I'll be a newbie at that myself! Being new is in NO way a bad thing, but contrarily, shows the simple courage and willingness to get into something that we've not yet become familiar with. Sorry you misunderstood my words, but lots of folks seem to be offended these days by writing in this etherous realm where tonal inflection is absent, and one can't see the speakers' faces. It's kind'a a "trap" of sorts, but if you're so sensitive that little things like that run you off, you'll likely have a tough time finding a place that suits you. This is one of the best boards on the whole 'net, and is frequented by a LOT of very knowledgeable people of great good will. It might be a good thing to give folks a little benefit of a doubt until they've proven themselves to you. Or not. Your call, I guess?

[vrh]

Lugged around an old M1 Garand in my US Army boot camp. Later I carried a Model 1911 45 cal pistol and a 45 cal grease gun in my tank. VN came around and we changed to a M14 rifle.
When I got back home, I joined the Police Dept. Spent twenty years there with a 357 S&W magnum and Remington 12 GA. shotgun. Retired from the PD and worked out of the US Marshall's office for 19 yrs. Carried a Glock 40 for those years.
From the time that I was in the army up until I completely retired I was taught sight and trigger control. Still use that training today. As for speed...well it came auto. the more I shot. ( Spent a little time at fast draw competitions)
Growing up, my daughter has been with me during my shooting times at ranges. I guess that she learned a lot, because that gal can shoot !!!
Now days, I reload just for me and my slow pace. Still enjoy a good day at the range.

[dtknowles]

I am evil, I have a very nice spotting scope and I look at other peoples targets. It makes me smile and I know who might be worth talking too.

Tim

[woodbutcher]

The people that taught me safety and marksmanship were my Father and his older brother who served in the trenches in WW1,plus a LOT of veterans from the banana wars and vets from WW2 and Korea.Boy did I get a lot of head slaps for screw ups.But I learned well.AND had fun doing it.Bless them all for their time and patients.Oh yeah Cant forget my Grand Father too.HE was a hard taskmaster.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[Bullwolf]

I grew up on a farm and learned learned to shoot at a very early age with a 22 LR rifle. My "job" was to keep the birds away from the apples in the Orchard. As I grew older I worked my way up to pellet rifles, and shotguns amazingly not developing a flinch. When I was older still, I graduated to handguns and larger caliber rifles. I also learned later that any pistol was more difficult (for me) to shoot as easily as a rifle.

Many tricks and habits were developed as a kid shooting those darn birds. I believe benefited greatly from these lessons later in life when I became an adult hunter.

I learned to shoot while standing up and holding a rifle in my hands, and the benefits of shooting a rifle from a rested position. Any available position of stability definitely improved accuracy. Wrapping the sling around my arm for added stability also helped. Leaning up against something like a tree branch, tractor, truck or even kneeling or (rarely) prone greatly increased my stability. Sometimes a fast offhand shot was all that was presented, and being able to do that accurately was an excellent skill to learn.

I was fortunate to shoot a lot while growing up, and I got lots of practice in. I'm sure I have developed both good and bad habits, but I wouldn't trade the experience for anything. This all helped to lay the foundation for a lifetime of shooting.

Today I still shoot offhand more than rested, but when I'm dialing in a new optic, I'll sit down, bench rest & sand bag that particular firearm. The majority of my shooting is done at 50 Yards or less on my property, with the exception of the few times a year I go out to a public range. I only rarely shoot rifles at 100-250 yards.

I have a few steel targets hanging up 50 yards from my porch, when shooting friends come over to my place, I'll sometimes set up a paper targets between the porch and my silhouette for plinking at, or bounce around the old tin can or some other reactive target.

You really know your a shooter, if you happen to save your old milk jugs, and orange juice cartons to fill up with water and shoot at a later time for fun.

Shoot well, and shoot often. Constant practice helps teach and ingrain muscle memory and to learn good shooting habits. Hand loading often allows you to shoot more, and for many how to create more accurate loads specifically tailored to your individual firearm.

When I shoot under pressure, it's all habitual now since it's something I have done all my life. I've seen others fumble shells, reloads, and make many other simple mistakes from a lack of practice or attention when any kind of pressure is on.

I should point out I'm a simple farmers boy. When I say under pressure I do not mean combat. I have never had to shoot at someone in anger in my life. I have not worked in the military or law enforcement either although I have many friends who have. I have shot next to them as well.

While working at the local range I've seen a good portion of humanity, and shot quite a lot in my lifetime. I've qualified before myself, and seen others crumble on the line while simply trying to qualify with a handgun at close range as soon as the pressure gets turned up.

Having worked at the public range, I've also had the benefit of watching from behind the glass both experienced and inexperienced shooters make most any mistake you could imagine. Male and Female shooters alike. Many of these mistakes were just from inexperience, or a complete lack of familiarity with the tools they were using.

I hate to use the word situational awareness because it's become such a tactical term these days, but if you can't tell that your gun is jammed, or that a bullet is sticking out of the end of your barrel, or if you haven't even seated the magazine all the way in your handgun or rifle... Your either not paying enough attention, or not paying attention to the right things.

Call it a lack of focus, or too much focusing on the wrong thing like just the target instead of anything else. Many get to the range, and put on ears and eyes and lose all other focus and get into this robot like trance of only looking down range. You could call this tunnel vision, or even Buck Fever as well, as they forget to look around at anything but what they are shooting at even if parts are hanging off of the gun.

Years of shooting practice takes away a lot of the jitters. Knowing what to do, and what things to look at are also good habits learned form practicing with your firearm over and over. You also tend to not jump every time you hear the report from a pistol or rifle when you hear it often enough.

I've plugged up many guns in all kinds of interesting ways from squibs and jams or what not, and I've even had others bring me a gun to unplug. After doing this long enough you start to learn a few tricks like:

Keeping a range rod and a mallet handy.
Stepping on a charging handle with your foot to clear a stuck rifle.
Bouncing the butt stock, while pulling on the charging handle to clear someones jammed AR.
How to carefully disassemble the slide of an auto pistol with a stuck round.
Using the above range rod to free a revolver with a stuck cylinder.

Note that many of these "jams" often occur with factory ammunition, which says volumes about the lack of quality control out there these days. Another reason why I hand load. To the best of my knowledge I have never assembled a cartridge with out a flash hole, yet I've seen Winchester somehow manage it.

If you listen and pay attention you can hear the sound a gun, particularly your gun makes when it's working properly. Learn to distinguish the difference between a regular load, and someone shooting something heavy that may possibly unsafe - Especially if they happen to be shooting next to you! The guy shooting his own "custom" hand loads that are 4X louder than everyone Else's are a good indicator of a potential problem.

Anything different becomes noticeable when you hear shooting all day long. Different isn't always bad, but you sure notice that guy shooting a super Magnum, a short barreled rifle, or something with a brake on the line. Another reason why the loudest ones tend to quickly gather a crowd. I'm often surprised when a shooter doesn't hear or notice these differences, and I do. Especially so when I have to stop them and tell or show someone something hanging out of his rifle. (Like a cleaning rod!)

The different sound a bullet makes that left the barrel, compared with a squib. The unpleasant louder report of a kaboom when a 1911 blows the magazine out of the frame and splinters the grips and so on. All this you learn along with marksmanship, when you practice and shoot a lot.

You also learn how to trouble shoot a firearm that has suddenly stopped functioning. I'm no gunsmith, but I'm a fairly good tinkerer and shade tree mechanic. All this has lead to an interest as to what makes a guns work, and keeps them working properly over the years.

A benefit of working with many different types of guns and plugging them up from time to time is learning how to clear them quickly and efficiently. If something has never broken on you, how will you know how to fix it when it does happen?

If you practice doing this stuff often enough, it all becomes somewhat second nature. Even after all these years I still find it fun, and shooting has become an almost zen like thing me.

As the saying goes, Even your worst day shooting, is better than the best day at work. Once you smell the powder from that first shell going off, it's all smiles and happy time.



- Bullwolf

[Blackwater]

My Dad was an old Marine (China, WWII and Korea) and he and some of his Marine buddies taught me how to shoot, squeeze a trigger and use a sling when I was still very young - about 7, I think it was. He wound up a pencil pusher in his later years, but even the pencil pushers in the Marines always wear their Marksmanship badges when in uniform. I'm sure that's where I got my penchant (obsession?) with hitting what I shoot at. Even tweety birds with a BB gun are "big game" in a kid's mind, and learning to use the sights and how to hold a gun made a big impact on me very early on, but it's a talent anyone can learn with a little practice and GOOD instruction.

The reason I asked the question in the first place is that much of the advice and "rules" I see today seem directed more at creating a basic safety result rather than being really dedicated to helping people hit what they aim at, and casters are in a rather unique position now, what with ammo prices being so high, to really learn to shoot well. As some have noted, I see a real diminishing of shooting ability today, and I just wondered what many out there are doing in order to seek and develop their skills. It's really not that hard if you just get some decent instruction and learn to really pay attention.

Paying attention seems to have kind'a gone out of style today, and many buy the latest guns and the biggest scopes in hopes of acquiring better skills, but we STILL have to learn how to hold and aim and squeeze. These are basic elements that, if not present, will never be overcome unless and until we get some really good instruction. A good shooter holds his guns with as much care as he does his lover! And learning to move the trigger finger independently of all the other muscles in the hand doesn't come overnight. It's always been an acquired talent, and I think always will be. But it's still important, though. As Bill Jordan said in "No Second Place Winner," all of recorded history fails to account for even a single instance of a bad guy succumbing to a quick, loud noise. Only hits count, and I must admit, I've been increasingly concerned about the ability of the average shooters I see today. They seem more concerned with getting along and not out-doing someone else lest it bruise their delicate egos. That is NOT a good way to learn to shoot, or even to approach the pursuit!

We're living now in a world where kids don't keep score in their games, and my youngest grandson pretty well typifies kids' reactions when he said, "We won, but they just don't give us credit for it any more." It's almost as if someone somewhere INTENDED to dumb us down when it comes to our ability to shoot. And political correctness seems to have eaten its way into some facets of shooting, and what's written about it. Many writers seem to be very lacadaisical about accuracy, and given some of the guns I see reviewed, and the groups they post from them, I can't help but wonder if even THEY know how to really shoot! My eyes are going south, and they've always been my Achilles heel. They've kept me from keeping up with a few of the very best shots I know. But still, I keep trying to catch up, and even hope to surpass them. One of my friends who's the finest shot I know, has eyes that, like mine, are getting less sharp, and I keep hoping that mine won't go south as quickly as his and I'll finally be able to best him. Not nice, I know, but 40+ years of getting beaten when you really WANT to "win" will do that to you if you really want to be the best you can be, as they say in the Army.

We all honor Quigley, but when we go shoot, sometimes resemble Elmer Fudd more than Quigley. i don't mean that disparaginly, but more as a wake-up call to those who need and want to improve. And like I said, it's so easy, really, if we just practice and get some really good instruction. I think the Marine Corps marksmanship manual would be the first place I'd start if I didn't know anyone who's truly a really great shot, and even really great shots aren't always good teachers. Teaching a skill is a particular skill that's not always related to doing the thing one is trying to learn. And that's the difficulty for most shooters today, I think - just finding the right teacher. Add into that mix the fact that people haven't been taught to notice things like we once were, and it's not hard to see why marksmanship has been fading over the last few decades.

And I'm not the only one to notice it. My marksman friend sights in probably 300+ rifles and pistols a year, and he'll tell them to make sure they use the same ammo brand and bullet wt. they sighted in with, but he repeatedly has them come back complaining that the "scope's off again," and when questioned, they reveal that they've changed ammo because they couldn't find the right one when they went to Wal Mart! He tells people and they just won't listen! And it gets rather old for him, too! One fellow is on his 3rd muzzle loader now because though he was told to clean the gun after EVERY shooting session, he refused, saying, "I only shot it once to check the sights." The barrel rusted horribly after a year in the closet, and he had to buy a 2nd. And danged if he didn't go right back and do the same dang thing AGAIN! So he's on his 3rd rifle now!

And he and I both have tried to teach people to shoot whenever we're asked, and when we go through the description and instruction, they often look up and say, "But I do it THIS way. Tell me how to do it like THIS!" And all we've come to do is just roll our eyes, and tell them that if they want to keep getting the same results, keep doing it like they always have, but if they want to shoot better, do it our way. Sometimes they get mad and rush off in a huff, which is fine, because if they don't have any more respect for good instruction, then I and he don't have any more regard for their delicate and inane sensibilities and egos. Often, they'll come back later, apologize, and take some good instruction, but not always. At least it runs off the most aggrevating ones so they don't bother us any more, and if they're intent on not learning, but expect some sort of magic words to somehow transform bad form and technnique into good results, then at least they're not wasting my and his time any more. Sometimes, one will come back, try doing things right, and then go back and show another the difference, and the 2nd one will finally come back and give it a real try. That's always gratifying, because we're really all in this together, and nobody wants a bad marksman next to them in a bad situation, or game to run off to die a wretched death in the woods!

It's been amazing to me to see how egocentric people have become, and how easily offended they tend to be these days. Even here, some see my words as hurtful, when their intent is simply to be as helpful as I can be. If people won't allow the help, then it's fine with me if they're offended. If I take my time to try to help someone and make the efforts to do so, and they simply won't listen because of their egos or whatever, it just seems fair and balanced that if they offend me by doing this, that they should in turn be offended when I don't care.

I guess reality doesn't compute like it once did these days? I don't understand the problem, but I can clearly see its result. We've got cops firing dozens of rounds and not cutting a feather! And THESE are the guys who are protecting us????? Gimme a break!!! I've worked with cops a good portion of my life, and love and respect them and what they do for us, but I'll never understand how so many of them can take marksmanship and skill with a gun so horribly lightly. And if THEY don't appreciate marksmanship, when it may likely save their life or another's one day, it's no big wonder why the average shooter can't do any better than they do now.

And it all falls back to the fact that it's really so darned EASY to get to be a very passable shot that's truly capable of defending his or her self! And that's the main thing I just don't understand. All it takes is letting the ego lay for a brief time, and really listening and trying stuff in order to find out HOW to get good at shooting. It's not something that responds well to a mere casual approach or inattention, but it's FAR from being a difficult thing for anyone with even average reflexes and physical abilities. Someone recently posted a video of a guy with no hands that shoots at a chamopionship level! For Pete's sake! If HE can do THAT, how isit that so many have a problem hitting even a 8x11" sheet of paper at 50 yds.?????

I'm no superman, and I've gotten pretty darned good. If I can do it, just about anyone can. With my diabetes and failing eyesight and other infirmities, I'm nowhere as good or as quick as I once was, but I still wouldn't want me shooting at me in a bad situation!

It just seems to me that many in our ranks are missing a truly golden opportunity to really develop their skills, and I just wondered what and how many were pursuing real marksmanship now. It's good to see it's not a dead issue! But I can't help but wonder how many may one day wish they'd put more attention on their shooting if they encounter a bad situation one day, and HAVE to shoot well to get to go home, rather than to the hospital, or even worse, the morgue.

Shooting will always have relevance to our ability to protect ourselves and our loved ones, and if so many today let ego get in the way of that, then so be it. But at least I tried, and told the truth about it. Maybe it'll spur some to seek things they haven't yet learned to value? I surely hope so. I never risk offending anyone unless there's a purpose and intent and possibility of something better in it for the future. After all, I may need one of you to protect me one day! If so, I want the best shot they can be doing that. Just makes plain old common sense, even if that does tend to offend some these days.

The simple truth can be unpleasant sometimes, but it's still the truth after all the yaking is over with. I need to do more shooting myself, so I'm not exempting myself from any of this either! It just seems that casters are in a unique position to really develop superior skills if only they WANT to and will simply use what time and ammo they have to pursue it. If it ever gets to be a bad thing to point these simple truths out, I guess I'll just be one of the bad guys, even though it's all done with the best of intentions and the greatest concern for people's lives and well being. Sometimes today, in our PC world, that doesn't count for much, but it's there, whether it counts for anything or not.

Thanks to all who responded, and it really IS good to see some who've pursued, and are still pursuing, real marksmanship. It's something that'll never become unnecessary, even though it may be out of style. Good on all of you!

[Blackwater]

Bullwolf, you make some points and cite some experiences that are exactly what I was looking for. Thank you! Not one of us started out as great shots, and we've ALL had to develop our talents, whatever they may be. I'm betting that if you know the sound of your gun when it's running right, you're one fellow I wouldn't want shooting at me! I know a few guys who are no great shakes on targets, but who are great on game. Most poo poo this, but it's true, but rare. Mostly, if you're good on one you're good on the other. These guys who are soso on targets but good on game just seem to be unconcerned about an inanimate target, but WANT to hit the game, and so ... they do. It's another illustration of how simple will is so often the main determinant of how well we shoot. If we WANT to get better, there's really nothing preventing us from getting that way, but our own selves. And unfortunately, I see a lot of that kind of self-defeating lack of will these days, and even an actual aversion of learning! But I guess I'm just an old far that doesn't fit in that well any more. I can handle that, I guess, but I can't for the life of me find a decent reason why that should be. Reason seems to be taking a back seat to our desires, and there's always been a price to pay for that. Just thought it'd be fitting and proper to point out a perhaps not too loveable fact or two in hopes it might do some good. Time will tell, I guess?

[swmass]

I got serious about marksmanship when I started reloading and got my own range membership. I always went with buddies or family since I was real young and the range was always an event. Bringing multiple guns and shooting all kinds of stuff, all with a "good enough" mentality. Once I could go by myself I started bringing one firearm to really work with until I got good at whatever I was working on...a lot of nights at the range alone. I started reloading/casting in order to fund my "habit", stopped trying to buy things for my firearms to make me a good shot, and just really worked on core marksmanship... and that has carried over to where if it has sights and a trigger... I can probably do alright. Theres no way I could afford to put so much time on the range without reloading and casting. Rifle came a bit easier for some reason. I'd like to get into IDPA or IPSC soon...just had to learn to shoot slow before I could shoot fast I guess. I'm in my early 20s so I'm definitely still a newbie with lots to learn

[freebullet]

I was doing really well with pistols. Was considering starting in uspsa,steel, & similar. Then I had rapid growth subcapsular cataracts. Went darned near blind in 1yrs time at 34-5yrs old. I had above average vision prior to that. Shot my 357 at 50yd offhand frequently with open sights.

Now I can see good again BUT, with iol's (the plastic lens they put in yer eyeball) you can no longer change your focal point. They are set with the lens you decide on. After mucho research I decided to go with mono vision. So my left eyes focal point is at about arms length & the right eye is set for distance. I can get by without glasses most times but, still use readers for small print & close detailed work.

This was a major handicap. Pretty much like starting over as a less capable newb. I've tried oodles of different approaches to improve. I use my left eye with open sight wearing pistols. The front sight is automatically in focus. Took many, many, & I mean many rounds to train myself to use my left eye instead. The problem I've run into is I'm unable to pick a detailed focal point on the target & switch focus back to the sight. Makes shooting pistols for groups offhand past 15-20yds impossible. I can still make rapid hits on bad guy sized targets but, the farther away the slower it is. My offhand 50yd open sight deer shooting days are behind me. That's left me putting quality dot/scopes on anything for shooting past 25-30yds. It's my sad reality and, I'm learning new ways to deal with it effectively.

Other than that improving is the same it's always been- shoot more!

[Blackwater]

Thanks, guys. It's encouraging to see some adapting and overcoming, not withstanding what wants to stand in our way at the time. It's stories like yours that really help a lot of guys out there who silently read and don't respond, to do likewise. All of us have our limitations, and age has certainly challenged me with its ups and downs, but being willing and able to keep on keeping on is what has always separated the people of this country from all others. One of the things I respect about the Russians and all other folks that habitually have to brave the elements is how they don't let anything stop them. Should we abandon the mentality that has served us so well for so long, and let ourselves deteriorate down to what the rest of the world does? I don't think so, but I guess I'm kind'a wierd these days in that? [shrug] I guess it's a cross I'll have to bear.

[Digital Dan]

Thinking numbers have surpassed precision these days, but the good part of it is that the youngsters will migrate to the bright side of the force in time. They will do so because people are competitive by nature and old folks hold the bar high. A bruised pride is miracle medicine.

[mozeppa]

The tone used by the OP is why I rarely bother visiting here any more. Calling folks out as "newbies", implying that someone new to casting isn't practicing enough. Who needs blowhards like that? Not me.

well...since you have a comprehension problem reading english...and missed the part where he only included "newby's" by saying:
"My question to you, and especially to you newbies here, ...."

maybe you should leave .....use the time to learn to read.
because in your hurried willingness to be pompis your comment was totally uncalled for.

just sayin'

[44man]

Some very good points made. One I see all the time is the ammo change.
One friend wanted me to sight his rifle, he loads his own and gave me 20 rounds. I found 3 different bullets and 3 different seating depths, feared what was in them and I refused to shoot them.
I was casting with my first guns and had dies and molds before a gun arrived. I did not do it for cheap but because cast can be made to shoot as good or better then what costs a lot. I found how to make cast work.
I still believe if your gun will not shoot good, no amount of practice will help you.
Of course, we get old so we learn if we miss it is just us, not the guns. There is still the satisfaction of having an accurate shooter.
Now a few will bring over 7 yard guns but I still shoot them at 25 however they are not built for distance or accuracy and there is not much you can do.