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Thread: Black Powder Substitutes, Really ?

  1. #1
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    Black Powder Substitutes, Really ?

    Calling modern muzzleloading propellants "black powder substitutes" for many of the rifles that they were designed to be used in is just stupid. Many of these pellet formed propellants were never intended to be used in a black powder era design gun.

    Holy Black has as much place in these modern rifles as it does in a modern cartridge firearm. Could you use it, sure you could. Would you then call it a smokeless powder substitute ?

    Pyrodex is probably one of the very few so called black powder substitutes left. I have read all the "horror stories" here about it and they are all very amusing. Pyrodex is everything Hodgdon ever claimed it was and if you fallow their directions for its use you will never have any trouble.

    Today's modern muzzleloading propellants are made for today's modern mostly inline and primer ignited rifles. Some of these propellants can be safely used in black powder era designed guns but to call them black powder substitutes is just simply wrong.

    You could call them black powder alternatives I guess but let's stop this "substitute" BS.

    Motor

  2. #2
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    Yes, really they are substitutes since can be used to as black powder substitute with volume-for-volume in most cases. All the subs are designed to operating in the same pressure range as real black. It's true that some are harder to ignite and may not work in flinters or with caps but they are still substitutes.

    Are you aware that the first black powder substitute was not Dan Pawlak's Pyrodex? It was bulk smokeless powder used as a one of one substitute for black powder. This was very common during the 1920's and 1930's.

    http://www.chuckhawks.com/real_black...substitute.htm

    http://www.chuckhawks.com/difference_black_powders.htm

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    i see absolute no point to this post. except something to do at the moment.

  4. #4
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    M-Tecs. You simply can not obtain the same velocity with any amount of black powder that you can with a modern muzzleloading propellant.

    Today's inline rifles were designed as much to use black powder as the .460 Smith&Wesson was.

    All of this evolved from hunting regulations. We are always trying to find a way to beat the system and inline rifles with modern propellants were designed just for that purpose.

    Motor

  5. #5
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    I agree, no point to this post at all. Seems to be up on a very high horse. If you don't like it, don't use it.

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  7. #7
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    Oh… This is gonna be a good thread!
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motor View Post
    M-Tecs. You simply can not obtain the same velocity with any amount of black powder that you can with a modern muzzleloading propellant.

    Today's inline rifles were designed as much to use black powder as the .460 Smith&Wesson was.

    All of this evolved from hunting regulations. We are always trying to find a way to beat the system and inline rifles with modern propellants were designed just for that purpose.

    Motor
    I am not sure what your point is. I agree that "primitive hunts" should be just that. Loose powder, flint or cap (no 209 primmers) and lead projectile. I have fought that battle at the state level and lost. You really only have two choices. If you don't like the law work to change it or get over it.

    I am far more of a "gun nut" than a "hunting nut". I also like choices. Depending on my mood I may hunt with sidelock with real black, sidelock with a 209 adapter and Blackhorn 209 or an inline smokeless muzzleloader. Was that the intent of the original regulation? No, but it is the intent of the current regulations in the states that I muzzleloader hunt.

    I am a long range competitor and a very avid prairie dog shooter. I have the ability and equipment to shoot big game at very long ranges. I choose not to. The last couple deer hunts I used 45/70 Trapdoor with real black. It didn't bother me in the least that most of the other hunters had scoped 7mm Mags or 300 Mags.

    Quote Originally Posted by Motor View Post
    We are always trying to find a way to beat the system
    If that was not the case humanity would still be huddled in caves trying to stay warm, dry and fed.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 01-17-2016 at 06:58 PM.

  9. #9
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    M-Tecs. So far you have been the only one to reply with anything meaningful.

    "High horse", "John Wayne" ? This is the typical emotional response.

    I can support my performance claims with published data along with my own. It is what it is.

    I was kind of surprised at first with the replies but I guess I shouldn't have been. These are the same people who have beaten into submission everyone who dares to mention "substitutes" or God forbid using them and liking them.

    In case you haven't noticed this is the "black powder substitutes" forum.

    Motor

  10. #10
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    Some only like holy black, some prefer subs, some prefer smokeless and some like them all (me). I am not seeing what the issue is??

  11. #11
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    Ok, call them "alternatives." Or as opposed to "Holy Black," maybe subs could be called "Holier Than Black," if it makes you happy.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    Some only like holy black, some prefer subs, some prefer smokeless and some like them all (me). I am not seeing what the issue is??
    Hey I'm with you I use both. I've been hunting PA's flintlock only season since its inception.

    I never intended this to be "a big issue" I was simply pointing out that some of propellants were designed and marketed for modern muzzleloaders and don't really deserve the "substitute" title.

    If it wasn't for Holy Black I could never get my flinter to ignite the 777 main charge.

    Motor

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    I've just recently begun delving into black powder (cartridge only)and have been somewhat dismayed by the snobbery among those who use only "Holy Black", as they call it, and turn their noses up at anyone who chooses differently. What difference does it make if one chooses Pyrodex over GOEX, or Swiss, etc.? In a fairly short period of time I've tried Pyrodex P, Pyrodex Select, Triple 7, GOEX and Swiss. I think one either has to be a chemist or extremely anal retentive to tell the difference when the trigger is pulled, with the exception of some differences in velocities between the powders. Yes, I've read the childish BS of "wrong colored smoke" and "smells different", pffft...
    I wonder why any smokeless powder invented after the original isn't called a "substitute" smokeless powder?

    OK, I'm through ranting....

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  14. #14
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    Motor...what would you have someone do if all they were able to get was a substitute? Should they be banned from hunting primitive season or enjoy shooting? I prefer black myself, however there were times I had no alternative or resource other than a substitute. I did have to up my charge a bit to get the same performance but it did work well in my .45 Peter Berry that I built. The only time I've run into the "holy black" snobbery was when I rondezvoued.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dryball View Post
    Motor...what would you have someone do if all they were able to get was a substitute? Should they be banned from hunting primitive season or enjoy shooting? I prefer black myself, however there were times I had no alternative or resource other than a substitute. I did have to up my charge a bit to get the same performance but it did work well in my .45 Peter Berry that I built. The only time I've run into the "holy black" snobbery was when I rondezvoued.
    I don't understand your first couple questions. I use a substitute (Pyrodex RS) and 777. In fact I use 777 in my flintlock during PA's flintlock only deer season.

    The only reason I mentioned hunting regulations was to point out the primary reason for the evolution of the modern inline high performance front loaders. I don't have anything against it.

    I try to keep my posts as technical and lacking emotional response as possible. That being said, I have to honest and say some emotional comments made by people who have not used or even tried something that they are so against does rub me the wrong way.

    One example: Guys says black powder fouling cleans up easier than 777. This guy has obviously never used 777.

    35 Whelen: In no other shooting sport will you run into "snobs" like you do when it comes to black powder. What are they afraid of? They drive newbs away and that will only lead to demise.

    Instead of all the half truths or out right misinformation why can't they just say to a newb, "yeah that Pyrodex will work but if you really want to have fun try some real black powder some time" I just don't get it. The only way to keep the sport alive is to encourage participation not to drive off people with snobbery.

    OK, I'm through ranting too......

    Motor

    PS: This forum (Black Powder Substitutes) is a sub forum in a black powder cartridge forum. I know this thread is about muzzleloaders and I hope that was OK in this sub-forum.
    Last edited by Motor; 01-21-2016 at 11:39 PM.

  16. #16
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    Yes it is OK to be here, the sub forum had to be somewhere if it was in muzzle loaders we would get people talking about the stuff in metallic cartridges.

    This forum is for the not black powder propellants designed for muzzle loading regardless of what it is shot in.


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  17. #17
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    [QUOTE=Dryball;3513849]only time I've run into the "holy black" snobbery was when I rondezvoued.[/QUOTE


    I could understand that. Would be about like walking into a CW Re-Enactment camp with a CVA inline claiming it was an 1853 Enfield.

    Myself, I totally prefer blackpowder. I have to drive 100 miles one-way to Winchester VA to get it, so I stock up when I go. But I shoot Civil War era handguns and rifles, so it works best for my shooting.

    If I was into moderns in-lines, I would definitely use some of the newer propellants, as they seem to work well in these type rifles with hotter ignition and somewhat higher pressures.

    I always wondered about the supposed "crud ring" that Triple 7 was said to leave in a barrel. I tried some T7 in my cap and ball 1860 Colt revolver once, and it worked great. Good ignition, and plenty of power. Shot accurate, and cleaned up quick.

    Other than being more expensive than black, I didn't see any downside to the T7. If that was all I could get, I would use it.

    Anyone know anthing about the "crud ring" problem with T7?
    Maker of Silver Boolits for Werewolf hunting

  18. #18
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    Hickok, I would like to hear about the "crud ring" too because I've never noticed it. I'm not saying it dosen't happen.

    The only crud I run into is when I reload my flintlock. The bottom 6 or so inches of the bore is cruddy where the 10gr 4F priming charge burned.

    I do know that T7 leaves a very light white haze looking fouling behind. It does not interfere with loading but the accuracy nuts say it does effect accuracy to some degree. Nothing a hunter would notice but I guy target shooting may. This haze is easily removed with one in and out pass with a lightly moistened patch. I do this sometimes when range testing or especially when sighting in. I want my first shot at game to be comparable to shooting a freshly loaded, clean barrel.

    Motor
    Last edited by Motor; 01-24-2016 at 01:52 PM.

  19. #19
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    Motor, I too was hoping some one knew something about the T7 "crud ring." I have read about it on other forums where guys say it formed right in front of where the ball and powder were seated in muzzle loading rifles. Was supposedly as hard as baked on carbon to remove.

    Like you, when I fired T7 in my revolvers, it just left a white residue, it never built up any, and wiped away easily. I have to say, it worked nicely for me, and if I got short on black powder, I wouldn't hesitate to buy some more.
    Maker of Silver Boolits for Werewolf hunting

  20. #20
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    i wonder if the original intentent of all this was just wording. their is getting to be too much issues in every area of our lives about wording. these type of people will argue about anything and never ever do anything with it than waste the time we have to live. i remember a local women who did this to me at a public meeting over words. i said to her in french, you have a big mouth women, dont you. didnt get a rise out of anyone as no one else spoke french, sure made me feel good. the point is. cast booilits is for shareing information, not ripping people for words use to share info. as to the crud ring i had that in rifles but have never ever tried it in my 3 cowboy revolvers. thanks guys, think i will get a can of it and see if it is as clean as you guy say. i know this about 777 powder. it can be made to shoot very very accurate. how does it clean out of a 38 special case or a 45 long colt case? and how would you clean these case useing triple 777? also i could care less about the spelling i read or sentence structure, its the shared info im after. keep it coming shooters.

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