Stock Rifle HV "HOW"

[Bjornb]

i put this in my 308 cases on top of 45.6 grs of 4831-sc for @2400 fps.
ww alloy water cut with soft lead 3-1.
0.5% tin added, dropped in a pail of water and sized to 310.
lubed with my moly complex lube.
simple as i can make it for ya.

I don't have Runfiverun's mould but I decided to give his powder charge a try in a Ruger GSR in 308 Win. I consider the rifle "stock"; it has been re-barreled with a 24" FN barrel donated by Love Life. Still a hunting rifle weighing less than 10 lbs., with a Zeiss Terra scope on it.

I loaded up 4 different bullets, 10 rounds of each: an LBT 150 spitzer in Monotype (had to try it; waste of expensive alloy), the MP 180 SIL in Linotype, the NOE 165 XCB cast from straight COWW (water dropped), and lastly the Accurate 31-165G cast from a COWW/Cu alloy, also water dropped. All the bullets except the LBT were aged longer than 12 months.

Cases were Lake City, unsorted, and I used WLR primers and White Label 2700+ lube. All bullets were sized to .310, as they were leftovers from the XCB project. Sizing to .311 would have fit this rifle's throat better; that's for the next project. All loads were charged with R5R's above load of 45.6 grains of H4831SC.

Here are the bullets used:


The targets:


I didn't quite achieve the advertised velocities, but at least it's a start. I'll continue to work with this rifle and cast bullets; the rifle is a solid 3/4" performer with jacketed and it should be possible to get her dialed in.

Since several members participating in this thread are firm believers in shooting softer alloys, I'll be casting up a number of bullet designs using wheel weights and range scrap just to try it out. I shot a lot of lino in the heavy bench rifles but what I'm really chasing is the perfect hunting load (cartridge/bullet/alloy/powder/lube) for my 30 cal rifles. Maybe I'll find what I'm looking for.

[Love Life]

That barrel is an awesome barrel. It's good to see it put back to use, BJornB. Off topic alert: Bjorn, my daughter says hi and that she got her new puppy!

[Hickok]

BJornb great post. I am really smiling looking at your results with the COWW. Can't wait for your next range test.

[chutesnreloads]

Been meaning to try this and this seems like a good place to motivate me to stick with it.
Going to see how far this can go on the cheap with these materials already on hand
Late '70's Savage 110 in 30-06 unmodified other than glass bedding
Lee 309-170F Lyman#2 Powder Coated
Lee push through sizer and Lee size and seat dies
This rifle has already surprised me how well it shoots this boolit with just LLA and 13 grains RedDot so....why not?

[swheeler]

Bjorn: thanks for the test, 2200 is nothing to sneeze at for hunting, especially if you can improve with a softer alloy. Just tweaking the loads could make a big accuracy difference for you, and the WW+Cu should take out any deer you happen upon.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Bjornb,
Great report. I look forward to more.
Jon

[Harter66]

Question?
How long is the bbl now ? You did say it was a 24" donor bbl .
Why not matching cases ? Accuracy is the goal with speed .
Why such different alloys ? It would seem that like alloys would show a direct bullet design comparison, no ?
There is a pretty wide load window here too . You're driving 180s as fast as 150s .
Not to belittle the effort but with 60-80 fps it seems pretty obvious to me why the groups are what they are . I worked a rifle once in 06' that with 150 gr jacketed would open groups from 5 touching to 6" from 2650 to 2740 and at 2690 it was still a 1.5 inch group. As an example only of velocity group failure .

[geargnasher]

Bjorn, I've tried and tried to do what you're going and never could get better results than that. I got plenty worse results, too, believe me! Please give up the diamond-hard bullet thing for a bit and focus on what you're wanting to do as a HUNTING load. That's what a lot of use who shoot bone-stock rifles at HV have found we HAD to do to get even passable accuracy. Linotype just doesn't seem to work well in normal twist at HV, or at least I don't know anyone who's made it work well and I can't make it work for that, either.

You can try a couple things that have worked for others: Size your bullets to scuff the freebore when chambered (snug fit!) and use an alloy about like air-cooled Taracorp Magnum (this will likely work with the NOE XCB bullet quite well), OR try the MP sil or LBT bullet and work up an alloy with about 2.5% antimony and less than 1% tin, water-quench them straight from a hot mould run at the light-frost temperature point or oven heat-treat it to around 20-22 BHN (three weeks to a month age time, heat treat temp somewhere around 380-400°F) and launch them with a powder in the 4350 burn rate area to 2250-2400 fps......there should be a sweet spot somewhere in there where the alloy and powder and barrel will all sing in tune.

I don't know if you do the oven heat-treat thing, but if you do, try installing your checks first and sizing to final diameter BEFORE you heat treat.

Water-quenched 50/50 alloy in .30 caliber at 2300 fps works REALLY well on deer and pigs, even it it hits bone. Highly recommended.

Gear

[Bjornb]

Question?
How long is the bbl now ? You did say it was a 24" donor bbl .
Why not matching cases ? Accuracy is the goal with speed .
Why such different alloys ? It would seem that like alloys would show a direct bullet design comparison, no ?
There is a pretty wide load window here too . You're driving 180s as fast as 150s .
Not to belittle the effort but with 60-80 fps it seems pretty obvious to me why the groups are what they are . I worked a rifle once in 06' that with 150 gr jacketed would open groups from 5 touching to 6" from 2650 to 2740 and at 2690 it was still a 1.5 inch group. As an example only of velocity group failure .

The barrel was 24" before, and it's 24" now. By a great stroke of luck the barrel threads fit the Ruger receiver and Goodsteel was able to install the barrel with very few modifications.
The cases were actually LC Match, reloaded about 20 times or so. My comment about "unsorted" referred to the different year stamps on the cases.


I loaded and shot theses bullets, alloys and powder because I wanted to stick with the "theme", of the OP, which was basically "shoot what you have". Those who have followed the XCB project in other threads know that I can do match prepped brass, weight sorted bullets, heavy bench barrels etc. That was not what JonB was talking about here.
If you want to discuss test protocols feel free to do so, but I'll be shooting (for now) some miscellaneous bullets that I happen to have on the shelf; today I found a couple of hundred Accurate 31-165G (XCB truncated cone) cast from 50/50 water dropped back in August. They have been sized .310, not optimum, but I'll see how they do. Hopefully tomorrow.

[Bjornb]

I don't know if you do the oven heat-treat thing, but if you do, try installing your checks first and sizing to final diameter BEFORE you heat treat.

Water-quenched 50/50 alloy in .30 caliber at 2300 fps works REALLY well on deer and pigs, even it it hits bone. Highly recommended.

Gear

Haven't done a lot of heat treating; may give it a try.
There is no doubt that the softer the alloy, the better the terminal performance on game. The problem is always to find the perfect balance between speed, accuracy and alloy performance.

[swheeler]

Nice looking rifle, man it's got a big honkin' barrel on it too!

[vzerone]

Bjorn, I've tried and tried to do what you're going and never could get better results than that. I got plenty worse results, too, believe me! Please give up the diamond-hard bullet thing for a bit and focus on what you're wanting to do as a HUNTING load. That's what a lot of use who shoot bone-stock rifles at HV have found we HAD to do to get even passable accuracy. Linotype just doesn't seem to work well in normal twist at HV, or at least I don't know anyone who's made it work well and I can't make it work for that, either.

You can try a couple things that have worked for others: Size your bullets to scuff the freebore when chambered (snug fit!) and use an alloy about like air-cooled Taracorp Magnum (this will likely work with the NOE XCB bullet quite well), OR try the MP sil or LBT bullet and work up an alloy with about 2.5% antimony and less than 1% tin, water-quench them straight from a hot mould run at the light-frost temperature point or oven heat-treat it to around 20-22 BHN (three weeks to a month age time, heat treat temp somewhere around 380-400°F) and launch them with a powder in the 4350 burn rate area to 2250-2400 fps......there should be a sweet spot somewhere in there where the alloy and powder and barrel will all sing in tune.

I don't know if you do the oven heat-treat thing, but if you do, try installing your checks first and sizing to final diameter BEFORE you heat treat.

Water-quenched 50/50 alloy in .30 caliber at 2300 fps works REALLY well on deer and pigs, even it it hits bone. Highly recommended.

Gear

Geargnasher, I'm confused. In one sentence you say that you're about in the same place Bjorn is. I also take it that you wouldn't be satisfied with the groups that he got. In another sentence you are giving advice of a couple things to try. Well apparently they don't work because in the first sentence you said you are basically stuck.

I would agree with giving up the super hard alloy, but Bjorn since posted the reason he's using it. I feel that the water quenched 50/50 alloy would be a good one to try especially for hunting also. I believe if it was oven heat treated that it would be too hard for hunting. I also believe the MP Sil even out of the softer alloy as not so good a hunting bullet because it's too pointy. Now, on the other hand the hollow point version is impressive to say the least even with the alloy I just condemned for hunting use.

I don't agree with some things you said to try. One was if you were to oven heat treat to gas check them first. I don't believe in that basically because I do not believe in annealing gas checks and oven heat treating will do that. The other is I believe they won't be as tight grasping on the bullet after oven heat treating. I can't quite go along with a scuff the freebore either. I don't agree with the temperatures you gave for oven heat treat. I believe in a much higher temperature and have done so with good results.

You didn't mention lubes. I think for this kind of thing, that is HV, that your SL lubes and the "other guy's" soap lube are the best in this country.

Bjorn before I signed up didn't I read you wore the throat on your XCB rifle from using Linotype at HV? If that is correct why are you still employing Linotype and even harder Monotype?

Last I don't believe in casting bullet frosty, but I agree you don't have to be adding 2% tin to anything.

Bjorn unless the different years on those cases have a wide spread of different internal volumes I wouldn't be concerned with it. You want to make sure you ammo is loaded with the bullet straight. You want to make sure your cartridge centers the bullet to the center bore line. Truing the neck wall thickness can enhance that. Weight your bullets helps much, unless you are such a good caster that the weights are very consistent. The slow powders are good here as is buffer. Not Dacron. Dacron acts much different then buffer. I'm not a huge fan of COW either. Clean your barrel frequently, but don't over clean it. Depending on type of lube I'm not sold on the bore has to be seasoned with a lot of shots. A good lube, such as mentioned above, doesn't need that much seasoning.

[btroj]

Thanks for the report Bjorn. Nice shooting.
I understand fully shooting the bullets you have on hand, it sucks having to wait weeks for bullets to age enough to feel comfortable that they are giving reliable results.
I wonder how each bullet would respond if all cast from the same alloy? Just curious as you have some pretty different styles there.
Maybe in a month or so we will have weather conducive to shooting outdoors. Tomorrow it is looking like a high just over zero, hardly good group shooting weather. Until then I will keep watching.

[geargnasher]

Geargnasher, I'm confused. In one sentence you say that you're about in the same place Bjorn is. No. I said I tried (past tense) to so the same thing he's doing now (armor-piercing double-tough alloy) and I never could make it work. I also take it that you wouldn't be satisfied with the groups that he got. Depends on what one is trying to do. I wouldn't try to hunt with any of those alloys, though, except MAYBE the COWW. In another sentence you are giving advice of a couple things to try. Well apparently they don't work because in the first sentence you said you are basically stuck. Nope. Hopefully I explained that a little better for you this time.

I would agree with giving up the super hard alloy, but Bjorn since posted the reason he's using it. I feel that the water quenched 50/50 alloy would be a good one to try especially for hunting also. I believe if it was oven heat treated that it would be too hard for hunting. My recommendation to harden by whatever means to 20-22 is actually about right for the velocity range using low-antimony alloy. That's a little bit of hunting experience with that alloy talking, not "belief", but if there's one thing I know it's that we all have unique experiences with this sort of stuff that influence our opinions. Just because a bullet is heat treated in an oven doesn't mean it HAS to be maximum hardness like about 27 BHN from my 50/50 at 425F for a full hour then into ice water, one can get the same hardness as water-dropping from the mould if a lower heat treat temp is used. I also believe the MP Sil even out of the softer alloy as not so good a hunting bullet because it's too pointy. I really haven't seen that pointy or matters that much in .30-caliber, but I know others have better luck with cup points or WFN's like Ranch Dog bullets. Thing is, VELOCITY. We're pushing bullets faster than most people by a few hundred FPS and using a little more ductile alloy than most people would try, and when a soft, pointy, fast bullet whacks hide and meat it mushrooms a little no matter what the initial shape. Now, on the other hand the hollow point version is impressive to say the least even with the alloy I just condemned for hunting use.

I don't agree with some things you said to try. One was if you were to oven heat treat to gas check them first. I don't believe in that basically because I do not believe in annealing gas checks and oven heat treating will do that. The other is I believe they won't be as tight grasping on the bullet after oven heat treating. I've done it and it worked fine for me. I never had any checks come off or any other problem, again that's experience, not "belief", your mileage, and his, may vary, but I don't dispense advice based on things I haven't done myself. If you've had bad luck with it, please tell us about what you did and how it failed. I can't quite go along with a scuff the freebore either. Take that up with Lamar, he gets it done with .308 and .223 AR by doing just that. It's what I do in my .308 Bisley and it works purty good whether you agree or not. I don't agree with the temperatures you gave for oven heat treat. I believe in a much higher temperature and have done so with good results. Heat treat temperature is subjective, and depends on what you're trying to accomplish. For a softer hunting bullet, I recommend the lower temperature, but any slight traces of antimony, calcium, copper, arsenic, sulfur, ETC. will affect how a given "50/50" alloy will harden.

You didn't mention lubes. I think for this kind of thing, that is HV, that your SL lubes and the "other guy's" soap lube are the best in this country. Maybe, but Carnauba Red is tough to beat if you have enough pressure behind it and the ambient temperature isn't too low.

I gave Bjorn two different approaches that have both worked for me to get 23-2400 fps out of various .30-caliber factory rifles with MOA accuracy. It worked for me, it should work for him. His case prep, casting skills, and attention to detail are more than sufficient to get him there if he just decides to stick with one thing keep working at it incrementally until he finally gets the bullet fit and alloy and powder to work for him. You know, the grind and grind and grind until suddenly the lightbulb comes on and it forever changes the way you approach handloading for rifles.

Gear

[vzerone]

Geargnasher I've had no problems what so ever with the way I apply my gas checks, that is un-annealed, but can you prove your method is better? I'm shooting the groups I want are you?

My statement on the Sil ARE from hunting experiences. That HV velocity statement doesn't make a difference it's just like a HV FMJ j-word. This even follows all down the line to smaller calibers. I was astonished that 50/50 Mihec bullets with the same kind of nose profile as the 30 didn't do much damage at all.

Can you prove that ice water makes a difference? I think that's a head job myself.

When you said worked for you what size groups are you talking about? Were those groups without fliers?

In the other thread (that I started on rifling land force) you said you were stuck and the reason you were in the thread. Then you said "well that's the end of that".....but I came back and posted more on dies and you haven't been back to that thread anymore. So I quit posting in it.

[geargnasher]

Vzerone, do you own a hardness tester?

Gear

[vzerone]

Yes I do, but a rarely use it on the bullets that I cast/shoot because I have my method set in stone and it's a waste of time. I don't need to be testing them every time. I do test new alloys I pick up to insure, or at least give more a indication, as what they really are.

[TXGunNut]

I have a rifle that would be perfect for a project like this. It's a (recent mfg) Winchester M70 Super Grade in 30-06. Twist is 1-10 and it has been idle since I got into CB hunting as I'm not sure how to build a boolit and load that will outperform a 30-30. This beautiful rifle might go hunting again if I can get a boolit that will perform with hunting accuracy and good terminal performance at 2300 fps or so.

[vzerone]

I have a rifle that would be perfect for a project like this. It's a (recent mfg) Winchester M70 Super Grade in 30-06. Twist is 1-10 and it has been idle since I got into CB hunting as I'm not sure how to build a boolit and load that will outperform a 30-30. This beautiful rifle might go hunting again if I can get a boolit that will perform with hunting accuracy and good terminal performance at 2300 fps or so.

Well I can tell you that you don't need that much velocity to have really good performance inside the deer's body. Honestly I don't load my hunting loads that fast unless I'm going to shoot longer distances. They would be too destructive. You can do a balancing act with bullet alloys and degrees of hardening and it's a pain in the butt.

[btroj]

What happened to posting how YOU do it instead of telling others why they are all wrong?

This thread has taken a wrong turn towards just another HV thread gone bad.