Swiss 1-1/2F - do the research or trust what brent and i are recommending, we ain't steering ya wrong.Originally Posted by TXGunNut
|
   
   
|
|
Swiss 1-1/2F - do the research or trust what brent and i are recommending, we ain't steering ya wrong.
In my 45-90 hepburn swiss 1 1/2 or olde ensford 1 1/2 both work well, Mine Likes bullets on the heavier side the 535 lyman Postell does well and the 550 shilouette bullet from Old West Moulds does really well in my rifles 1-18 green mountain 34" barrel. Start at powder chrge to reach base of bullet trickled thru drop tube. a fairly heavy stiff wad ( Ivebeen using napa rubber finer gasket material .060 thick) and a tracing paper wad. from here you can work up in 2 grain increments adding compression as you go. I have a case made up with a 3/8 wide X1/2" tall window cut in it 3/8" down from case mouth with a slit from right side corner of window to case mouth. This forms a simple collet you can chamber a bullet in this case and it will set just touching rifling. The window allows you to measure from case mouth tobase of bullet telling you the room you have left for powder and wads.
Sorry I did not go back and read the start of this again.....But! Brent is right. If you are trying to ready a rifle to shoot a match, especially a first match, Get a supply of the same lot of powder. Make it Swiss. Because, just as Brent said.
If everything else is up to the task, the powder will put them in the smallest group of any powder choice, right off the bat, and then you can play with a grain up or down from there and refine the load.
Either grade, 1.5 F or 2F will be about the same to start.
Thanks. May shoot a match someday but first goal is the steel buff in Raton. Figured the 2Fg may give me a bit more velocity. Once I figure out what works I'll order a case and keep it simple.
Endowment Life Member NRA, Life Member TSRA, Member WACA, NRA Whittington Center, BBHC
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.
You don't need more velocity to hit the buff at Raton every time. I use 1.5 and a .45-70 and do it all the time. Many do it with much lesser cartridges.
I agree with BrentD. Some times more velocity causes problems due to changes in how the bullet does in the wind, and transitions from super sonic to subsonic. Some of these bullets may not perform as well at higher velocities also. Shoot for around 1100-1200 fps. Most of these BPCR rounds just seem to "magically" fall into that range with the black powder loads. That buff should be alot of fun and a 500+ grn slug slapping it should make a nice ring evven at the reduced velocity due to range. In my testing recently with the 38-55 and the new lab radar ( gives 5 readings of velocity)< this was 1 rounds readings from muzzle to 175 yds V 0 - 1237, V 10 - 1227, V 75 - 1163, V 125 - 1117, V150 - 1091, V 175 - 1061, This was with a 365 grn Old West Nasa bullet. The same day a friend chronographed a 223 with 55 grn bullets V 0 was around 2800, and V 125 ( farthest it picked up the little bullet ) was around 2450, these are from memory as I didnt save the series. Look for low extreme spreads and standard deviations with the loads. Accuracy will follow. Back in the day increasing power with Black powder loads meant increasing bullet wieght, This produced more energy and in most cases carried velocity better over distance.
country gent, my experience is a little different. ...just a little tho
I have found;
Difference in velocity between grades of Swiss does not vary as much as some of the other powders. The velocity of equal amounts of 1.5 F and 2F Swiss is often too little to be of any real mater.
I prefer velocities for midrange shooting 1200fps and higher. Really, accurate loads running 1225 to 1250 fps is my goal. Lower than this 1100fps and up, I find a greater miss rate, missing just above or just below on turkeys and rams and chasing high/lows on paper targets at 600yds.
The exception can be on the shorter targets 200yds to 300 meters, the low 1100 fps loads may be preferred, allowing the bullet to be subsonic soon after leaving the muzzle. On this, testing to see and keeping notes on match trends pointed this out to me.
It also might be hard to get velocities less than 1200 with a 45-90 and Swiss powder.
_
The buffalo at Raton is a good fun shoot but for some reason I don't do it much. One thing about hearing the hits on the buffalo, the wind direction may bring the sound in clear or keep you from getting any audible confirmation at all. The Buffalo does not get painted much but it is shot a lot, so seeing hits is not only hard at 1138 yards because of the great distance, think looking through the swimming pool, but is just hard to make out what might be a new hit.
Chill Wills
Chill I will agree with you I normally shoot for High 1100 ( 1150-1200 fps) or even to the mid 1250s. Threw tracking shots durning matches and testing I have found with some bullets after 1300 or so needed windage may increase and down range performance may also suffer some. I dont have the data built up you do as Im newer to the sport. But Im used to scorebooks and watching data ( NRA high power competitor for many years) Not to mention the fatigue factor of the heavier loads. Im currently putting together the second batch of test loads I tried yesterday. 38-55 with 46 grns OE 2 F 365 grn nasa bullet. in sized new cases this gave 1240fps Im expecting with fireformed brass this to drop to 1225 or so due to increased volumne. I wont shoot past 500yds here in Ohio. But accuracy at 200yds was good and the last 8 rounds went on the 6" gong at 200yds for seven hits. But yes I do agree with what you say I could have worded my post a little better diffrent. Ive tested both 1 1/2 and 2F olde ensford in my 45-90 and there is little diffrence in velocity but compression does change some. I have some Swiss here just havent started working with it yet.
At the one range we shoot there are 2 buckets for the side match a normal size and half sized bucket. These are shot after the shilouettes at 500 yds and really a lot of fun. full sized bucket is 1 point and half sized is 2 points, 3 shots 4 shots fired 1 sighter 3 for record, sighter is convertable. At the other club is a buffalo target, Body 1 point heart 2 pts and scrotum 3 points again 4 shots 3 for record this range is 400 yds and again this target is a ball to shoot. Some of the side/fun matches are more fun and challenging than should be allowed. LOL. We shot chickens at 500 for the one fun match last year. That buffalo at 1138 yds would be a blast.
Kurt it's funny how that works. If it wasn't for the internet I probably wouldn't have even found out about bpcr/bptr and definitely wuldn't have bought all of these rifles
Don thanks for the info on that bullet.
Chris.
Well Chris the CPA .45-90 came to life in time to take it to Lodi with still wet oil on the wood but I had to shoot it. I didn't shoot to well with just throwing 85 gr of 2F OE powder in the cases but the 424-4 is a start.
I finally got all the .44-75 cases cut down and shot once to fit the chamber and got a load worked up and ready for the Big Hill at Baker Mt. and the Quigley shoot.
The tight chamber will only except a paper patched bullet, just about got the chamber to tight that a .451 diameter bullet will just fit the unseized case and 82 gr 1.5 Swiss for the 513 gr prolate bullet and a 84 gr 1.5 Swiss load for the Baco 444-540M @ 530 gr with 1.5 Swiss.
It's shooting well close at 200 but I will see what it will do at long range when the conditions kick up.
Might just have to get another case of Swiss. All I have left of it are empty cans
Kurt
Good stuff Kurt. I just got a fresh new case of Swiss, but have only run it through the .45-70 so far. A Baco .446 money bullet and 80gr of Swiss 1.5 really works well so far.
I think I'm going to shoot my F1 Chrony soon though. It is crazily unreliable in some lighting conditions. This first .45-70 load is either reasonably decent right out of the box for midrange ( SD just under 5, ES 14, av 1273 fps ), or crazily bad if it's bright and sunny on my chronograph. Fortunately the load shoots well so far at 200. I'm going to order an Oehler 35P as soon as I get back from Wyoming so I can trust the data.
Chris.
I haven't used my Chronographs for some time. I have one PACT Pro and two CED's The pact gets a little squirrely when the unit is close to the muzzle and when battery gets weak. I have to keep the unit as far back from the muzzle as I can then it does fine. The CED's work good except when you take both sensors outI usually have one set up down range at 105 yards or at 205 yds to get a BC. I never hit the down range sensors but usually the one out at 15 ft.
This is only the second case of Swiss I have bought. The first was when Goex discontinued the express powder I got a mixed case of 1.5 and 2F Swiss and I didn't like the hard crusty fouling, but I was blow tubing at that time and that just did not work well with it even around here where it does not get to dry except in the winter. When I picked up this rifle I ordered a case of 1.5 Swiss with 5# of 2F to try the swiss again in this rifle mainly because Brent has very good success using it for his loads. I figured if I have one of his Prolates I might just as well use the powder he uses with his success. Well the fouling is still there but I now wipe so that takes care of that and it is shooting very good in this new rifle. The last time out with ladder test loads I was on @ 14 and using his prolate I have not seen the same 82 gr load of 1.5 I have not seen a group that opened past 2.5". This makes me think I better get another case when I get back home and get it ready for the fall Lodi long range match.
Kurt
I have to wonder if, with paper patched bullets, Swiss 1.5 has the perfect burn rate. It seems the easiest powder I've used to work up a load. The Goex Express FFg worked quite well with 82gr in my old .45-70, and Swiss 1.5 is even better in the new one.
For fireforming I used only 80gr as that's all that fits in my cases. I might not even have to tweak that load at all, likely just perfect my wiping to get the SD down a touch more.
Chris.
Chris for when I form cases I use all of the old powder I have, mixed and swept up powder and ole left over bullets, clean everything out for forming brass. All of the .44-75 ballard cases I expanded the necks and loaded junk powder and bullets to do that job. Good way to clean the powder box and shelf's
Come on to Baker and the Q and have some fun.
Kurt we have our Kamloops match at the same time as the Quigley. Admittedly though, if I was going to find time for another match, it'd be another BPTR one. I'm headed out this morning to shoot with the fine folks in Wyoming his weekend.
Chris.
82 gr. of Eynsford 1.5 in the Captec cases ,puts that JM3 bullet out the barrel of the CPA at 1340 fps, and shoots real nice groups as well.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
I have to go to a wedding this weekend or I would be on the road for this weekend Lodi midrange match and just stay on I-90 after the match and head for the Big Hill at Baker and on to the Q. I have 1500 rounds loaded for the trip and I will have to be a little more conservative on my fun practice days. Last year I ran out of ammo with the same amount I took for just three matches.
Instead of sitting here I should load a few more.
Wow 1500 rounds! I find it hard to find the time to load an extra 200 rounds for a match between practice sessions. How many days does it take to shoot 'em all off?!Chris.
Chris last year I shot Baker Mt. a week before the Quigley and again the week after the Q. I took 1500 and I didn't pay attention on my count, I thought I had a full box that turned out empty when I got ready to load the gun cart the morning of the match.
I just loaded up another 100 today for the back up rifle just incase LOL so I will take 1600 this time. I have a couple more shoots on this trip besides the Baker and the Q before I get home so I will have to cool it a little so I don't run out again.
I packed my 310 hand tool just incase to reload if I'm close to the Nationals or Bryers on my way home.....don't know yet....I would kinda like to make it up your way too.
Yes sir, I was paying attention when you posted that awhile back. Thanks for the reminder. Dabbled a bit with OE powder and really liked it, looking forward to trying it and Swiss. Talked to the nice folks at BACO today, mould is 4-6 weeks out. If anyone's interested get your backorder in and they'll run one for you, too.
Endowment Life Member NRA, Life Member TSRA, Member WACA, NRA Whittington Center, BBHC
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.
Those BACO moulds are worth the wait.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
Posting Permissions
| BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
| BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
| BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
| C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
| HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
| PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
| LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
| GC | Gas Check |
Reply With Quote
Chill Wills