Problems forming 17 rem from 223 brass

[brstevns]

I have tried to form 17 rem from 223 brass and the shoulders collapse every time. The die I have is the Lee 17 rem die,
any suggestions?

[GRUMPA]

What's happening is your moving to much material at one time, things like that require steps. When I form 221 Fireball brass they go through 3 different sizing steps and I get maybe a 1% scrap rate. Any.....and I mean ANY imperfections at all....deflector dings etc.....will only get worse when squeezed into something else.


EDIT: LEE dies although cheaper......just aren't the best out there when it comes to conversions.

[brstevns]

Would a RCBS or Redding trim die work for forming?

[GRUMPA]

It would only work once you moved the material close to the finished dimensions. If I wrote what it takes and why I might as well write a book on the subject. Thing is when I do the 221 Fireball cases I'm playing with the shoulder angle so I'm not trying to form the new angle all at once but gradually. If you want.....PM me a shipping address.....I'll send you a few 221 Fireball cases to play with....GRATIS..

[brstevns]

I think I understand. I need first to get the should angle correct before doing any sizing to the neck etc. that way I will only be sizing down the neck with the 17 Remington die.

[GRUMPA]

If I'm understanding it right your pretty close. What I do is form the shoulder at lets say a 45deg angle first, then a 37deg angle, then the finish angle. But while I'm changing the angle at every step.....I'm decreasing the neck diameter at the same time. It's what I call a multi-step process that I do in a progressive press to help speed things along.

I do that on many of the conversions I do, it's almost the only way to do things like that without scraping the cases and make it some-what productive at the same time.

Of course I use my own homemade lube when I do things like that, and I just wrote a thread on that in this section....

And I hope you realize your going to need to ream the necks when you get done forming. What I do is form the case with the decapping rod removed, ream, install the decapping rod to finish, and anneal.

[brstevns]

Thanks, I think I have it. Will give a try

[brstevns]

Do you make 17 Remington Brass ?

If I'm understanding it right your pretty close. What I do is form the shoulder at lets say a 45deg angle first, then a 37deg angle, then the finish angle. But while I'm changing the angle at every step.....I'm decreasing the neck diameter at the same time. It's what I call a multi-step process that I do in a progressive press to help speed things along.

I do that on many of the conversions I do, it's almost the only way to do things like that without scraping the cases and make it some-what productive at the same time.

Of course I use my own homemade lube when I do things like that, and I just wrote a thread on that in this section....

And I hope you realize your going to need to ream the necks when you get done forming. What I do is form the case with the decapping rod removed, ream, install the decapping rod to finish, and anneal.

[GRUMPA]

Read my signature.....

[EDG]

I will add that you can push the shoulder back with other dies with larger neck diameters in several steps the leave little for the final FL size to do.
I have not formed .17 Rem but I have formed .17 Ackley Improved Bee from .218 Bee.

The RCBS .17 AI Bee form die has a neck ID measures .222. The RCBS trim die measures .198.

RCBS trim dies are usually .010 larger than the FL sies.

A .30 Mauser (7.63X25) or .30 Luger (7.65X21 Parabellum) FL die will push the shoulder back.

I use one to form .256 Win Mag brass.
A second form die could be the .256 Win Mag. FL die.
Then use a .221 fireball to push the shoulder back
Then a .17 Rem trim die.
Finally FL size. You may find some annealing is needed with all these steps.

I may use more steps than necessary but I have time and the patience since I am not forming cases for anyone but myself.

Like grumpa said and this is no exaggeration (Definition of negative - any dent, crease, fold, nick or a scratch)

ANY negative defect will not iron out when the metal is compressed going around the corners as it is formed. If there is a negative on the shoulder or any place below the shoulder that will be squeezed around the shoulder and up the neck, it will ruin the case.
The negative will accumulate lube and will be forced inward making it worse. Usually the case will be scrapped by even a .015 dent.
So cull your brass ruthlessly. Any with defect should continue life as usable .223 cases.

[brstevns]

I will add that you can push the shoulder back with other dies with larger neck diameters in several steps the leave little for the final FL size to do.
I have not formed .17 Rem but I have formed .17 Ackley Improved Bee from .218 Bee.

The RCBS .17 AI Bee form die has a neck ID measures .222. The RCBS trim die measures .198.

RCBS trim dies are usually .010 larger than the FL sies.

A .30 Mauser (7.63X25) or .30 Luger (7.65X21 Parabellum) FL die will push the shoulder back.

I use one to form .256 Win Mag brass.
A second form die could be the .256 Win Mag. FL die.
Then use a .221 fireball to push the shoulder back
Then a .17 Rem trim die.
Finally FL size. You may find some annealing is needed with all these steps.

I may use more steps than necessary but I have time and the patience since I am not forming cases for anyone but myself.

Like grumpa said and this is no exaggeration (Definition of negative - any dent, crease, fold, nick or a scratch)

ANY negative defect will not iron out when the metal is compressed going around the corners as it is formed. If there is a negative on the shoulder or any place below the shoulder that will be squeezed around the shoulder and up the neck, it will ruin the case.
The negative will accumulate lube and will be forced inward making it worse. Usually the case will be scrapped by even a .015 dent.
So cull your brass ruthlessly. Any with defect should continue life as usable .223 cases.

I do have a 22 Jet die, wonder if that might work?

[EDG]

The 22 jet has a very long taper so it might help you get the process started.
If you have some extra GI brass you can sacrifice clean a few off.
Put a good 17Rem case in your press ram and raise it.
The screw the 22 Jet down until it touches the 17 case and lock your die.
Size a few 223 cases and see if the Jet die does you any good. From looking at a .22 Jet photo it will not do much for you.

A .221 or .222 Rem can be used to push the shoulder back but the Jet appears to have such a long taper with NO SHOULDER it does not look like it will be of any benefit.

I do have a 22 Jet die, wonder if that might work?

[brstevns]

Waiting for a set of 222 rem. to arrive. I might try a few with the 22 jet while waiting.

The 22 jet has a very long taper so it might help you get the process started.
If you have some extra GI brass you can sacrifice clean a few off.
Put a good 17Rem case in your press ram and raise it.
The screw the 22 Jet down until it touches the 17 case and lock your die.
Size a few 223 cases and see if the Jet die does you any good. From looking at a .22 Jet photo it will not do much for you.

A .221 or .222 Rem can be used to push the shoulder back but the Jet appears to have such a long taper with NO SHOULDER it does not look like it will be of any benefit.

[EDG]

You can buy just the sizer bodies from Lee for about $14 or you can find used die sets on Ebay or Craigs list at reduced prices.

A .204 Ruger FL sizer die body might make a useful intermediate die too though it might need the base cut off a little.

I got a .222 die set once that had an extra FL sizer someone had beat up and heated with a torch. It would still size a case. When you find that kind of junk you can always put it on a stove burner and remove the heat treat and then ream or bore the neck out to make a form die.

[brstevns]

Waiting for a 222 die to arrived. Might give the 22 jet die a try just to see what happens.

[brstevns]

Alright! The 222 Rem die body arrived. Thanks everyone for your help. Once I got the 222 die set to set back the shoulder I had no more problems. Now I will need to inside ream or neck turn, but things are looking good.