I just got a set of RCBS X dies in 270 Win and never used them before. I have been taught to measure and trim every case for consistent loads. If you use or have used the X dies, does it save you time and provide consistent length on your cases?
|
   
   
|
|
I just got a set of RCBS X dies in 270 Win and never used them before. I have been taught to measure and trim every case for consistent loads. If you use or have used the X dies, does it save you time and provide consistent length on your cases?
je suis charlie
It is better to live one day as a LION than a dozen days as a Sheep.
Thomas Jefferson Quotations:
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
Follow the instructions to a tee then keep perfect records. It is a great system.
Only have the one die in 223 Rem.
I have four AR-15 Uppers. Chambers in 223 SAMI , 5.56mm NATO and 223 Wylde. I keep precision ammo for a specified upper in 100 round plastic ammo boxes that I really favor for ammo storage. Then I have ammo loaded in surplus LC brass labeled ball ammo for whatever in any of my rifles. I pack that in 30 caliber steel ammo cans. 700 to a can with that absorbent paper layered between. So what I'm saying is they come out all different sizes depending upon what rifle they were fired through. They all have Lott numbers. My system of numbering is this. Year of first load - then a batch number. Thus next week in the first week of 2016. My first loads of new brass would be 2016-1. In my spread sheet I have a Colum to list how many rounds. in the lot. 100 round box 3 x 100 round boxes and so on. or 2x700 round cans. Since down the line I'll have this coffee can of brass with a lot number on it then need to know what it is. Brass does not get reloaded until the entire lot is ready to go empty. Since splitting lots in half is *****.
With a hunting rifle like a 270 Win. Myself would use 100 round boxes. Have some 20 round carry boxes for hunting but always label them with ink as to lot number and what 100 round box they came from. To return spent brass to 100 round box then top off carry box. Then If you are not totally anal about backing up computer files I'd keep records in a ledger book old school. Duplicate the short form inside the lid of the 100 round boxes. That sticker comes with the box. 100 round boxes work because bullets come in packs of 100. Then you just decide how many rounds you shoot when you play. If all you do is big game hunt with the rifle. Two boxes are all you'll need. With an X die and standard SAMI pressure loads you'll be able to load those cases twenty times in 270. Anneal the necks every five loads. Most people don't even do that but I have had bad experience with necks splitting while ammo was in storage. Since there is a condition called age hardening. Which means it's better to run a couple hundred cases in fast rotation than run a couple thousand only loading them once every five years. AKA old stale ammo. Accuracy is all about consistent neck tension, alignment, then dimensions. then obvious givens like consistent powder charge. Round to round consistency in all parameters. With the RCBS X Die. You push the brass right back into the form of the die. Time after time. Consistency. Eve when you chamber may be out of round the brass gets mostly rounded. Concentricity is the word the auto tire people use. If you have 300 cases you will wear out the barrel or near enough before the brass wears out. In most calibers. Will be a slow process so you can buy another 100 rounds of brass down the road. I am one of those nuts that will shoot 200 rounds in a day out back. So I need at least that much brass.
If you ever loose the instructions to the dies they are online at RCBS. You do need to follow directions meticulously. Not a big deal. Couple minutes of setup. Then your 55 cent a piece brass last as long as your rifle. With no degradation in performance. I'm a retired machinist so the part about measuring cases plus or minus .005" is very bland to me. But if a person thinks running an X die is to hard. They may just need to step up to the plate then hone there skill level. I think they are great plus I truly believe they save time as trimming brass is not my thing. Plus that trimmed brass comes from the body that is getting thinner. I've only pushed out a few hundred case bodies with a brass bore brush after the heads broke off. X die is not magic. Brass will never last forever but it will be more consistent. Life span is always a variable to how hard the pressure is and quality of bras to begin with. Just figure twenty loads if you stay within book charges.
My second CF rifle was and is a 270 Win. Have never worn out any brass because it kicks pretty good. Nice shooter I have is an old Lyman 122 grain Loverine #280468 over 14.0 grains Unique powder. Over 1,800 fps. The 270 won't be a speed demon with cast but it does shoot well at under 1,900 fps. I cast that bullet at a BHN #9 and it mushrooms In critters. Inside 200 yards it's way more hammer than an AR-15. I have a 150 grain RCBS bullet but that needs rifle powder to send it. The lighter bullet can be sent at max velocity with shotgun powder. Which is not position sensitive and just shoots way better. NOE and Lee both have new light bullets in that weight range for 277. Catering to the 6.8 SPC shooters.
“AMERICA WILL NEVER BE DESTROYED FROM THE OUTSIDE. IF WE FALTER AND LOSE OUR FREEDOMS, IT WILL BE BECAUSE WE DESTROYED OURSELVES.” President Abraham Lincoln
Thank you Artful and Gabbym. Between the two of you, I got the answer I was looking for and then some.
Artful, I think you just taught me a better way to search the site. I looked around for posts on the topic and didn't see anything. Thanks for spending the time to pull and share the links.
GabbyM, I have a Ruger m77 270 Win that loves the 130g Nosler Ballistic tips loaded with 59g of H4831sc and Federal #210 primers.
I'm a proponent of the RCBS X-dies and have used them since the first hit the market. I use them for for calibers I load, that are prone to stretching, 243W, 308W, and 338 Win Mag. I do own a 270W, but that case is not noted for stretching, so I never found the need to invest in one. I'm sure it wouldn't hurt but not necessary for that caliber. YMMV.
Winelover
Use them according to directions; they work as claimed. I've used them in .220 Swift and .30-06 for a good while. I only shoot jacketed bullets in the Swift, though I shoot cast and jacketed in .30-06. If I were shooting only cast bullets, I probably wouldn't bother with an X-die as I've found little case stretching with cast loads.
I've seen it mentioned that the X-die use may contribute to a neck concentricity problem. I haven't seen that, but perhaps it's true if the die is not properly adjusted.
That was my first thought lotech. I haven't used them yet but I will give them a try.
Have any of you that use the dies checked the concentricity of your loaded rounds using these x-dies?
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees" Looking for an RCBS Ammomaster and H&R shotgun barrels regardless of condition
Yes.Originally Posted by troyboy
Larry Gibson
The only difference in the X-Dies is the sizer die. The seater is the standard RCBS type seater die.
Well Larry,how do they compare? Vzerone in my experience the sizer plays a more important role in concectricity then the seater. That is why the question was asked.
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees" Looking for an RCBS Ammomaster and H&R shotgun barrels regardless of condition
My 223 X die is spot on dimensionally. Does not over work the case neck like many dies do.
Larry already wrote of his long term successful results.
IMHO people having case concentricity issues then blaming the FL size die are barking up the wrong tree. Assuming the die bore is properly in line and the Press is aligned. I've seen other peoples load presses that were sprung and out of alignment. If your rifles chamber is out of round. Your brass will become thicker on one side after sizing. They will do that even when just neck sizing because you do not index cases in the chamber. Last month a man that I assume was new at reloading showed up with some 243 J bullet loads he was real proud of. Showed me one with the pretty plastic tip. Case shoulder on a few was visibly bulged. My guess would be long case getting over crimped. Why he'd want to crimp 243 is beyond me. But good chance he didn't even know he was crimping them. Just ran the seater die down then went with it. Many are just heavy handed and ham fisted with everything they do. Then blame the equipment.
If you don’t keep your brass sorted and stored by lot. You will get buckled and or bulged cases in all sorts of ways. It’s just not that big a deal to take a plastic coffee can. Write your lot number. Then place the brass in the can.
Old saying is junk in junk out.
I don't personally find that making quality ammo takes that much longer than just spewing out junk. Largest case lot I make up. Is 30 caliber ammo can of 5.56mm. I pack 600 rounds in one. Coffee can with good matching label holds the empties. Plus I keep any loaded magazines well labeled else I forget what's in them.
“AMERICA WILL NEVER BE DESTROYED FROM THE OUTSIDE. IF WE FALTER AND LOSE OUR FREEDOMS, IT WILL BE BECAUSE WE DESTROYED OURSELVES.” President Abraham Lincoln
Yes I have to agree with Gabby. Only way the sizer could affect is by what he said. That seater die is very important. I'll take a Forster benchrest seating die any day over a RCBS type. That X-Die sizer is pretty much standard except for when you get up to the neck area and it's not so much the die body but the decapper stem assembly. There is sort of a mandrel up there, but not exactly because it doesn't fit the case mouth tight, it couldn't because of all the different neck thicknesses out there. Then there is the shoulder on the end of that mandrel section and that is what stops or prevents (for lack of better words) the case from growing. That is also what can cause you case to bulge the shoulder if you don't follow the setup instructions. Basically what I'm saying is if you take that X-Die sizer and swap the decapper stem guts from a standard RCBS sizer die you have almost the same thing. These things are all well and fine when you are loading j-words. Why? Because they size the necks down too much and this works the brass way too much having to expand it out to proper dimensions for loading fatter cast bullets. Personally I prefer bushing dies or sizer dies that I have altered specifically for shooting cast. That way the brass at the neck isn't overworked. I have pretty good brass life doing it that way. To sum it up X-Dies great for j-words, not so great for cast.
My testing of the X-die in .308W and .223 Remington (I have 6 other X-dies for other cartridges) as far as concentricity goes shows no difference as compared to NS and FL sizing with standard, bushing and collet dies or even the old Lee Target Loaders. Many don't realize that every time that neck is sized, regardless of how it is done, the brass is swaged back into a smaller diameter. The brass does not go back exactly the way it was before. Even with precisely turned necks after several firings/sizings if you neck turn again you will find high and low spots indicating the neck thickness is not as uniform as it was right after the 1st neck turning. How much difference there is seems more a function of the malleability of the brass and the amount of sizing back down that occurs.
As to X-dies with cast bullets. I've found if the Lyman M-die or the NOE equivalent for use in the Lee expander die is used the inside is concentric (if you set the dies up correctly) and negated any concentricity problems that may come from varied sizing methods. I also prefer to NS with bushing dies sizing the necks down so there is just a bit of tension going over the expander in the M-die. Or so there is just .002 - .003 neck tension on the bullet.
Larry Gibson
Look at all the top bench shooters that have rifle chambers set up where you don't resize the necks at all. Things I don't like about standard seater dies is that they are setup for j-word bullets and about the only cast that work with them are bore riders with long noses as the nose is smaller then the full bullet diameter and those noses fit up into the bullet seater's bullet guide section. Take something like a Loverin and it will shave the bullet. You have to open up that bullet guide section. I believe RCBS Cowboy dies account for that as they are geared for cast loading. On my Forster Benchrest seater dies I open the bullet guide section up with appropriate size reamers that let the guide fit my cast bullet diameter very closely. I've talked to Forster and asked them if they make their benchrest seater using a chamber reamer and they said that they do except the throat section is not on the reamer. They then make the long bullet guide section a decimal point larger then the bullet diameter....very very close to the bullet diameter. I don't think that there could be a much straighter made production seater made.
It's not only the sizing, which includes dragging an expander through the neck (inaddition to your separate expanders such as Lyman M type, RCBS type, etc.) it's also shooting that affects the neck thickness.
The only thing special about the X-Dies is how the case mouth is against that shoulder on the decapping stem assembly to not let the case expand forward. Again that's why it's critical how you adjust the stem or it will cause your case to bulge. Pretty much like bulging 30-30 cases when roll crimping when the case lengths vary.
I got a X Die for .308 first and then .30-06 later. I got the die right before loading this batch of cases for the 2nd time. They were all trimmed per the instructions, and now on the 10th reload they haven't moved a bit.
Since the brass isn't being stretched during the sizing operation, or more properly when the expander ball is withdrawn, the case walls stay the same thickness.
On another note: I'm not driving these cases super hard either which may account for their longer life. To date I haven't lost 1 and these were the First 100 American Eagle rounds I bought when I got the gun, so it has 1000 rounds thru it so far.
X Die Good!
Randy
"It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
www.buchananprecisionmachine.com
This would be good to have in the reloading equipment section.
Last edited by troyboy; 01-02-2016 at 11:41 AM.
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees" Looking for an RCBS Ammomaster and H&R shotgun barrels regardless of condition
Posting Permissions
| BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
| BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
| BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
| C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
| HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
| PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
| LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
| GC | Gas Check |
Reply With Quote
W.R.Buchanan