Made a swage/bump die for a regular press

[Buckshot]

.............Instead of making a swage die for the Walnut hill press, I made one for a regular reloading press.



The first thing to do is to grind the spoon for the nose. This one is at the point where it gets twitchy. Grinding the radius on. For me it's a "Do a little and lay it aside". It seems to help me at least to pick it back up after doing something else and do a bit more, then stop again. There's no sense in chucking up a piece of stock until the tool(s) are done so it can be completed.

The level of accuracy required precludes removing the workpiece and then replacing it at some later time, and having to go through the re-setup all over again. At least that's the way I work it.



The hole is step drilled, and this is the last bit in before reaming and boring. The stock is 1-5/16" so it's too large for a 5C collet. The reaming step will leave (hopefully) about 0.010" to bore.



Left photo boring completed. The swab in the bore is just to show an almost reflective finish. In the right photo a .450" (.0002" minus) pin gage 'just' fits. You can flick it with yout finger and it will spring in and then back out on the compressed air. The next step is to pull the body out a bit away from the chuckjaws and cut the 1-1/4-12 threads.

The body is indexed then reversed and the top end stuff is done to the body.

[Buckshot]

You end up with the finished die (pretty much). The other stuff is made seperately from the body. Above the die body is the ram mounted push rod. Off the right end of the die body is the adjustable stop nut. Below the die is the ejector pin in the ejector/stop rod. The setscrew in the larger OD of the stop rod merely keeps the ejector pin from falling out and there is no swageing pressure on it.

The large end of the stop rod is 1/2" OD and rides in a .501" bore. The rod was turned between centers and reduced to .312". This reduced OD goes through the .313" hole in the stop nut. The 1/2" OD abuts the stop nut at a point to pit the ejector pin at TDC in the cavity. The stop nut can be screwed in deeper to form a HP in the slug if desired.



Left: Top of the die, threaded 7/8-14 for the stop nut. You can see an index scribe mark at 3 o'clock on the rim. This was used when the body was reversed to counterbore and thread for the stop nut. Right: The ejector pin and stop rod in the die body bore.



Left: The complete assembly Right: The ejector pin in the "Full down" position.



Before and after bases. The 'As Cast' slug on the left with the bumped slug on the right.



The 'As Cast' slug on the left, and the re-formed or bumped result in the middle. As you can see I ground the spoon just a tad off, as the bumped slug has a little sharper nose with a slightly reduced meplat. On the right was a core blank I use for swaging .443" slugs for paper patching to .451" for the Whitworth and Rigby muzzle loaders. It was .438" and is now .451".

The cavity in the die body has a useable length of 1.65" so he should be able to swage or form up some heavy boolits. This die has no bleed hole and is to be used in a Lee Classic Cast press with cast slugs from a PP mould. I advised to adjust the body down to the Lee's built in TDC limit slowly while ejecting and checking to get a fully formed boolit.

..................Buckshot

[Nueces]

Very nice work, not to mention the text and photos. You're in a fair way towards being able to publish a book on reloading toolmaking and custom dies. Yup, I agree you have a flair for fine machining.

Mark

[lathesmith]

Nice job Buckshot! I see you used your trusty Buck 6-jaw. That thing probably sold for more new than all of my machines and tools put together! They are nice, but pricey! I had to make my own "poor man's" version; I used a 5-inch, six-jaw China chuck, and made my own "set-tru" feature. A Buck it ain't, but it actually isn't too bad, considering. As you noted, you need something different when the collet chuck won't handle the work size; other than a 4-jaw, the 6-jaw is a decent alternative. It does seem to be less marring than the 3-jaw, and should be a little more accurate to boot.
I wanted to ask the burning question: what type of steel do you usually use for these form dies? I have been thinking of ordering a few things from Enco, and I am going to get a good selection of O-1 drill rod and few other odds and ends. I wish they would run that free shipping thing again, I miss that!
lathesmith

[Dave Berryhill]

Very nice machine work Buckshot!

[georgeld]

Buck you do some mighty nice work.
Wish I had bought the good machinery when I could have, but, didn't have a shop then.
Do now, but, it's filled with materials "for later".

Any chance you might have a round spoon of .454-457"??
Believe I've read where you make them from carbide rod, right?

[Buckshot]

...............I thank you all for the compliments . All is NOT beer and skittles however. Note, in the first post, one photo shows a piece of stock with a red end and the other photo it's not? What had happened was that the cavity on the red painted one would swallow a .451" pin gage when I was done boring. You sure can't polish out the cavity and have it STAY .451". Metal has a habit of disappearing when being honed.

However all wasn't lost, as I had been wanting to make a swage die for the Walnut Hill press to form .462" slugs to paper patch up for the 577-450 Martini.



So it turned into the above. All I have to do now it thread it 7/8-14 to fit the Walnut Hill press. Another oopsie was the knurling. I guess I'll have to wrap some brass shimstock on the body to keep the chuckjaws off the knurling Does using the mistake for something else erase the mistake part, heh, heh?

lathesmith Enco is now carrying Buck chucks, and a new 6 jaw Adjust-Tru is $1300 without the backing plate. That's another couple hundred itself. Since I got the 6 jaw and a 2 jaw Buck (both Adjust-Tru's) a 3 Jaw Rohm chuck, a couple regular face plates, a T slotted face plate and 2 driver plates plus the lathe for $1500 I paid for the 6 jaw and everything else was free.

There was an article in one of the "Projects in Metal" books from Village Press about doing what you did to alter a regular chuck into an adjustable one. For the steel I use 12L14. It machines so nice and polishes to a mirror finish. You can case harden it but not through harden it. So far there hasn't been any problems with using it for swage dies. I use a much heavier wall thickness however.

The free shipping code for ENCO for April is: WBAP8 This is for orders over $50.

georgeld "Any chance you might have a round spoon of .454-457"?? Believe I've read where you make them from carbide rod, right?"

A 'round' spoon? You mean for making round noses? If so, no I don't. Tough to get a true RN as there is usually an ejector pin so you have that small flat. I suppose you could use a larger OD ejector pin and for a portion of the RN in it, along with the cavity. A true round nose would almost have to be plunged straight in.

I grind the spoons and form tools from HSS. Usually drill and reamer blanks.

................Buckshot

[Southern Son]

amazing stuff, Buckshot, yet again I have seen how something is done, but because of the way you presented it, I understand how it is done. I have said it before, when are you publising the book on this stuff?


Ron.

[EMC45]

Nice, nice, nice!!!

[Woodtroll]

Gents,

This is a little bit delayed, as I have had no time recently to try this die out. I was VERY impressed by the workmanship when I received it. Now that I have been able to do some preliminary work with it, I find that it works as good as it looks.

If any of you have some machine work in mind, please do not hesitate to try Buckshot first! Top-notch design and execution.

My thanks, Mr. Buckshot!

Y'all take care, Regan

[JBMauser]

Can I ask a few questions as I am trying to get my mind around this project. Since I can't cut threads with my little unimat lathe I will try and build a push in and out CH type die ala swag-o-matic. The first picture of the boaring bar is called a spoon but I only see straight cutting edge. It is ground from round stock. I kind of thought I would have to luse a regular flat sided cutter to hold it tight in the tool holder else torque could turn it. No?? I am a rank rank amature by the way.

Does the ejector pin have the balance of the ogive cut in it? I can't imagine not seeing some kind of step line engraved into the bumped bullet.

can the nose be cut as an insert that runs up into the die and seats on a shoulder and doubles as the ejector? Kind of like the nose punch in the Swag0matic only reversed. punch in die and ram is flat?

Thanks for any help you can offer and thanks for a great post and excellent work. JB

[Buckshot]

Can I ask a few questions as I am trying to get my mind around this project. Since I can't cut threads with my little unimat lathe I will try and build a push in and out CH type die ala swag-o-matic.

The first picture of the boaring bar is called a spoon but I only see straight cutting edge. It is ground from round stock.



On the left is a finished spoon. It's had the radius ground in, and naturally the relief under the cutting edge. On the right is the setup I use. It's an Aloris type tool holder. The toolblock itself fits down over the dovetail and is then retained when the arm atop the tool holder is rotated. This causes the piston (seen in the center of the facing dovetail) to move out and applies force to the toolblock.

There are several different types of toolblocks. The #1 has a simple square channel cut across it for holding square bits. The bits are held via 4 setscrews (of which you can see 2 in the photo). The #2 toolblock is the same, except in the bottom of the channel there is a 'V' groove milled in. This is to centralize a cylindrical tool under the setscrews. This is what I use to hold the spoon.

I kind of thought I would have to luse a regular flat sided cutter to hold it tight in the tool holder else torque could turn it. No?? I am a rank rank amature by the way.

You certainly could use a flat cutter with the form you want ground into it. Oddly enough they're called Form tools. The spoon is also a form tool, but it kind of resembles a spoon, so........... At issue in ANY setup, in ANY lathe (or mill, etc) is rigidity and mass. The more you have the better off you are. And if you exceed the rigidity of the tool, whatever is holding the tool, and whatever that is mounted on you get chatter. Unless you're after some artistic type finish chatter is bad.

It's simply that the cylindrical form is the one you use to get the mostest mass and rigidity into a circular hole. Mass and rigidity resists chatter. Other ways to lessen the chance for chatter is to keep stickout to the bare minimum. Stickout is the distance from the point where the tool is held to the cutting edge. Use the tool with the largest shank or body possible, with shallow cuts and fine feeds, and finally with a harder material for the shank.

Does the ejector pin have the balance of the ogive cut in it? I can't imagine not seeing some kind of step line engraved into the bumped bullet.

In this instance, no it doesn't. Look at the boolits in the original post and you'll see a small meplat. It's the diameter of the ejector pin. It'd be some fancy finicky grinding (the ejector pin is HSS) that is well beyond my capabilities.

can the nose be cut as an insert that runs up into the die and seats on a shoulder and doubles as the ejector? Kind of like the nose punch in the Swag0matic only reversed. punch in die and ram is flat?

Sure could. You'd have to bear in mind the pressure being exerted radially outward as the lead slug begins to fill the tapered cavity. It will want to expand the thinner steel down toward the base of the nose former/ejector. Just like the skirt of a Minie' bullet expands. Using the right steel and heat treat, and keeping pressures in mind it's sure do-able. In fact with good clearances between the nose forming punch and the die walls, the punch could expand to the body wall for support. When the ram pressure comes off it could relax away from the body wall. This would compress the lead a bit but we're talking tenths here.

Of prime concern would be a bare slip fit of your nose former/ejector in the bore of the die. Add to that that both pieces would have to have a finely polished and (undoubtedly) a HARD surface.

Thanks for any help you can offer and thanks for a great post and excellent work. JB

You're very welcome, and I'm flattered you asked.

.................Buckshot

[waydownsouth]

Nice work Buckshot the pictures make it a lot easyer to understand

i have a question about grinding the spoon i am guessing it was ground by hand

This might be just a silly question as im new to machine work but could it be done in a cnc miller by replacing the cutter with a stone ?

[madcaster]

Great thread Buckshot!

[Buckshot]

Nice work Buckshot the pictures make it a lot easyer to understand

i have a question about grinding the spoon i am guessing it was ground by hand

This might be just a silly question as im new to machine work but could it be done in a cnc miller by replacing the cutter with a stone ?

................Yes the spoon is ground freehand, and it is a nervewracking proposition. As you get closer and closer to finishing (with all that carefull work behind you) one slip, and it's start over time. You also have to resist the temptation when it's done to where you can begin stoning it, to make "Just one more pass" on the grinder. Usually that 'One final pass' means you have more stoning to do or you've ruined it. After doing several by hand on a benchgrinder you learn just what you can and cannot do, and how close you can control the critical relief angles.

I dont know about a CNC miller grinding the tool, but I know there are CNC grinders. A manual Darex grinder with an air spindle to do endmills, and reamers pushes 3 grand or a bit more. It has no capacity for curves. The machine able to produce increasing, and diminishing radiuses plus their leads and stuff would be a magnitude more expensive Im sure.

...................Buckshot