Adventures in "once-fired" brass

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;


My Son Thomas is staying here for the winter. He got the fever for a 7.62x51 (no rifle yet) so he bought 200 "once-fired" military cases on-line. ~ In doing this he didn't consult with me since the deal was so 'good'.


Yesterday as I worked out in the casting shed building inventory of 30 caliber bullets for next season he set up with the intent to run the brass through the necessary FL sizing procedure. When he was done he anticipated removing the crimp from all the primer pockets as well.


Shortly he came out to ask; "Why does it take so much force to size these cases?! ~ I can hardly move the press handle on these darn things.." I put my furnace into a holding pattern and went in to see what was going on.


Sure enough, although he had properly lubed the brass and the press was set correctly it was all I could do to run a case through the die.


Short of seeking out a larger more powerful press I backed off the die so-as to use only the last little bit of ram travel. This, as you know, will provide the greatest leverage the tool is capable of. Then all I had to do was slowly advance the die with each short-stroke of the lever until it fully sized the case.


This worked - but still wound up making fairly heavy demands on my arm.


Next, I got out my Type 38 JAP, (re-barreled to 7.62x51) and tried a sized case in its fresh chamber. ~ It was possible to chamber the case but it was a 'wringing' fit - with the last closure of the bolt I could feel that the case, although it chambered, that there wasn't any space left over!


Thomas was using a bran-new RCBS die. I went looking and found an old, old C&H FL die in my parts pile. It sized the case the additional 0.0012 needed to chamber smoothly.


Then I went back out to cast a few more bullets, leaving him at the bench, working hard at sizing

It didn't take too long before he came back out, saying that he was so discouraged that he figured it would be better to just scrap the cases and go ahead with new brass.


I told him that the money spent on this lesson was well spent - going on to relate how I'd learned the same lesson the same way when I got out of the Navy, bought an M-1 and lots of "once-fired" brass.. It didn't take me long to sell the M-1 and I kicked the box brass under the tool bench, to be forgotten until this very day.


So, the young man is cured from beating his head to mush on the cases AND now that he knows how tough it is to run brass from a semi-auto rifle through this procedure I think he may have found the 'cure' for his fever for buying an M-1A


Good morning, Forrest

[ZippyHillbilly]

Life Lessons. We have or will all do these things at some point. LOL

[Omega]

Mayhaps he received once-fired from a machine-gun, they are a bit harder to size than ones fired from a rifle. I would not get discouraged, M1A are some mighty fine rifles.

[ZippyHillbilly]

About the only way I get "used brass" is at the range in person. Seems when I go to the range to work on my stuff and bring my spotting scope .... I end up spending an extra couple hours or so spotting shots for folks. If they don't reload most give me the empty brass in the boxes they came from. I know it's once fired because I called the shots for them.

[GRUMPA]

I use nothing but mil 308 cases for my conversions. Found out a couple of things real quick, dies will need to be altered, and that generally means removing an average of .005-.008 from the base of the die. Also, no matter who says what about lube, I make my own and have sent some out to others. Compared to what they were using, which I have no clue, they report back with it's the difference between night and day.

When I work the the 308 mil brass it's important to double plunge the case, size once and spin the case about 90deg and do it again. Brass has what's called spring-back, doing it twice helps keep things the same.

[C. Latch]

I have bought a fair bit of 'once fired' brass off Facebook and other sites. Some is great, some is not.

The worst was some .300 WBY brass - not cheap by any means - that had three different ejector marks plainly visible on the case head.

I literally had to sort through the pile and finally found 10-15 pieces out of 75 or so that would chamber in my .300. That gave me more than enough ammo for the hunting season (I do 99% of my rifle hunting with another rifle) but it was still frustrating. I could have bought Weatherby branded factory ammo and fired it for the brass for cheaper.

[Artful]

One always needs to remember that military chambers are usually oversize, so once fired brass is going to be on the large size - I actually bought the small base die because some I had resized with regular die wouldn't go in tight chambers of some of my rifles. And don't forget to trim because as you squeeze them back towards normal dimensions they tend to grow.

[triggerhappy243]

What case lube did your son use..... Just out of curiosity?

[EDG]

Sometimes these sizing problems can be caused by a too tight FL sizer or inadequate lube.

If you plan on being a handloader that takes advantage of once fired brass don't skimp on your press.

If you get a batch of tough brass get a tube of Mystic JT-6 chassis/wheel bearing lube (or equivalent).

It is messy to use but it takes about 1/2 the force of Imperial and being a waterproof wheel bearing lube is it hard to get off of your brass.

Once you get the tough brass sized once you will not have to use the JT-6 again.

[Tackleberry41]

Not all brass is equal. Can't say have ever bought any once fired 308, friend of mine has a huge box of it, all lake city, so very likely ran thru military weapons. I scooped up a bunch of it to run thru my cetme. Standard small base die does the job, lube em up enough and its not really that much effort. Just a touch to little and it gets to be hard to do. They work fine in my cetme.

[RogerDat]

Another example of wisdom is gained by experience and experience is gained by making mistakes.

I think maybe size matters. I can tell the difference in some once fired 5.56 it does take more arm action to size and deprime but not all that bad. I'm guessing the larger calibers would amplify that extra effort. The .5.56 I do are run through a resizing die a second time after doing the trimming and primer pocket swaging. Mostly just because I prime on the press so they end up going through the die when I bring the brass up to load the primer.

Debated extra pass being more working of the brass vs. getting a better sizing the second time.

[EDG]

There is a guy that shoots a lot of 5.56 who has a youtube video.
He uses a Dillon 650 to size and prep his brass. he has 3 FL sizer dies in this press and each is set progressively deeper.
The Dillon sizes the brass by cycling it through the 3 FL dies and then it goes through the Dillon trim dies.

Once his brass is prepped he loads it on another Dillon. PP swaged, primed, charged and bullets were seated.

His set up would size any case back to original size and would do it with out pulling off a rim - even at high processing speeds.

[alamogunr]

After reading this thread, I got out some of my .308 brass. I've got both once fired and some that, if fired, has been sized and primed. All LC brass. I have one set of .308 Winchester dies, Redding. I put the size die in the RockChucker and sized one case using Imperial wax. It didn't take an extreme amount of effort just more than cases fired in my 788 Winchester.

When I tried to chamber the case it lacked a little going all the way. I couldn't get it in with extra effort on the bolt. I guess I could either do as Grumpa suggested and take a little off the base of the die or get a "small base" die. I would be inclined to go with a small base die since I don't do well trying to "Bubba" my way thru modifying tools.

The primed LC brass has apparently been sized if it has been fired. It sized fairly easily(yes, I removed the decapping pin). It chambered with some difficulty which leads me to believe that it may be new brass that has been primed.

I have enough brass that, once it is sized to chamber with a small base die, I probably wouldn't have to use it again. Does anyone have a comment discouraging use of a small base die?

[toallmy]

I love LC. LR brass thick and tuff I have found it to be well worth the fight plus primer pocket does not need cuting . The thick neck tightens up groupes in some of my riffles.I could just order some nice brass ,but its not as muchj fun.

[GRUMPA]

When I tried to chamber the case it lacked a little going all the way. I couldn't get it in with extra effort on the bolt. I guess I could either do as Grumpa suggested and take a little off the base of the die or get a "small base" die. I would be inclined to go with a small base die since I don't do well trying to "Bubba" my way thru modifying tools.

When I size the brass, I alter the die by removing some off the base, but that isn't all I modify. The reason behind removing some material off the base of the sizer die is to bring in the gauge dimension from the shoulder to the base of the case. You would be surprised how some dies just don't size enough to bring in the gauge dimension back to spec.

I do use a small base die in another station when I do those, that way everything is as close as possible to S.A.A.M.I. spec.

I use gauges and indicators when I form/resize a lot of what I do. Without the gauges or indicator there's no real way to be in control of what your doing.





I hold the 1.6017 gauge dimension when I size those.

Edit: Dangit....I thought I posted a picture of a 308, instead I have a picture of a 300Sav.....anyway....you know what I mean.

[Tackleberry41]

Yea alot of dies do not properly size. But think alot of it is just tolerance stacking. I was having issues with tight brass in my 8mm. Just not pushing the shoulder back enough, quality die, good brass. Not some shot out war gun, but a Yugo M48. I didn't modify the die, but the shell holder. I had several that would fit, but thickness was all over the place. The thinnest one gave the least problems. So I shaved one down, now it sizes fine. A $3 shell holder vs a $30 die.

I have used plenty of once fired brass, a friend worked at a range so got it by the bucket. Plus stuff I had bought or picked up. The lube was critical. When they got harder to size, it was time to add some lube to the pad, then they went thru easy.

[EDG]

The total tolerance between most SAAMI go and field gauges is .010.
Some of the ammo tolerance is +.010-.000 and some is +.015-.000. You can see how you can wind up with a sloppy fit with factory ammo.

One of the better die makers cheats toward the SAAMI no go length. That brand of FL die is about .004 longer than the Go chamber length so you can wind up with tight ammo. You might have to trim one now and then but it better than having sloppy ammo.
That same brand seems to used rifles for the dimension when there are no SAAMI standards. So their FL dies are nearly an exact match with the length of the rifle chambers....

[leadman]

I use my old Rockchucker for sizing difficult brass. If real bad spring back exists I put a .020" feeler gauge under the case base in the shellholder. I use a feeler removed from the stack that has a hole for the pivot screw in one end. This keeps the decapper pin from going thru the feeler gauge. The pin goes thru the gauge real easy, but it makes it hard to remove the case from the shell holder!
I do have one shellholder I sanded down the top on for one of my 1891 Arg. Mausers that has a short chamber. I don't want to correct it since the gun is very accurate and I'm afraid I might spoil it.

[Lead Fred]

Ive been nawing away at 10,000 mil surp 30-06 cases for over 10 years now.

Slow and easy beats sore hands any day

[pretzelxx]

Those 240 machine guns have a very loose chamber. The warning gage is still a pass!