funny story

[moto357]

After being bit by the PP bug this year, I keep thinking of new things to patch. I've always loved muzzleloaders and had a number of smokeless ml's too, and always wondered if PP would work with smokeless. When asked, most people would say they don't know, but highly doubt it would. Personally, even if it doesn't I still like to try...at the very least I might learn something along the way.

A couple months ago I chucked up a piece of aluminum in the lathe and made a .442 480gr mold that I would be able to patch for a 45. Then I bought a 45-70 barrel and made a breech plug and bored/threaded the barrel for my plug. Shot sabots with .401 210gr nosler decent and shot .452 300xtp with amazing results.

Ok, everything works.... on to the PP. Not sure how to start with load info, or alloy for that matter. First attempt was 22gr 4759, veg wad, then pp boolit cast of pure lead. At 75 yds it hit my target board sideways. I walked up and dug out the boolit and this is the part that had me scratching my head. It was much longer than before it was shot, and one side of the boolit had rifling marks down the entire length! Since I was there and had the powder weighed out, I tried once more with 48gr 3031 and it wasn't even close to hitting the target board. Although this one when dug out of the dirt bank appeared to have went in nose first and not sideways, for what its worth

Lesson learned? Maybe. Not sure if I should waste any more time on this dream or cast up a harder alloy and give it another go.

Sorry there isn't a picture, give me a day or two and you can see my noodle boolit!

[Nobade]

Blackhorn 209 will bump bullets. It works quite well in muzzleloaders if you want to use smokeless. The only other smokeless powder I know of that will bump bullets is Trailboss, not exactly what you'd want to use in your rifle.

-Nobade

[docone31]

That sounds way undersized.
I patch for .30s. My mold drops at .309, I then wrap twice with computer paper, soaking wet, then when dry, I wipe with Turtle Wax lightly, and resize to .309.
I got the idea from Herters bullets for the .30. They were made .309 and did real well in my-6.
I use full tilt loads.
It looks like your mold is undersized. I try to make the inner bullet, touch the rifling, and the paper act as a gasket. On my recovered loads, there is rifling all the way around, with depth. No paper makes it to the target.
Might give you food for thought.
When I tried them with smaller dia to wrap, they went everywhere except the target.
Who knows.

[moto357]

That's how my cartridge guns work as well, bit being a ml I need to be able to load them. After going through my .451 die they come out just shy of .452 and load snug but don't tear the atch. This is why my mold is the size it is.

I'll get pictures up tonight

Just found an article on western website using blackhorn for pp. Always swore I wouldn't buy any at $30 for 10oz but it might be my only option. Not sure I would trust trailboss in a ml application, unchartered waters!

[Old Coot]

I have a Whitworth copy by Pedersoli. The bore is hexagonal. I paper patch a .446 bullet (round) with two wraps of tracing paper, lube with JPW and size to .451". Fired over 75gr of 777 they expand to fill the rifling leaving hexagonal holes in the paper, and the 375gr. RCBS bullets are very accurate. I would use either BP or a substitute if I were you since the bullet has to be bore diameter to get down the barrel.
Brodie

[moto357]

[moto357]

My guess is that it went down the barrel like a piece of dough rolled between your hands, making it longer and skinnier and thus seeing the rifling marks on the side it rode down

[1845greyhounds]

Moto357, I've been pondering trying PP out of my smokeless ML aswell. I've also been pondering shooting powder coated or Hi-TEK coated, bore sized boolits. Any experience playing with powder coated, bore sized boolits in your SML?

In comparison to a plastic sabot loaded bullet, how hard are the PP boolits to seat?

[moto357]

This is that sight I mentioned, not smokeless but interesting. I especially like that he gives chrono results for a few loads at the end.
http://blog.westernpowders.com/2015/...-muzzleloader/

Greyhounds, I never had much success with powder coating to even think to try in this application. What do you have for a sml? I would think it would work fine if your alloy is just right and the load isn't anything wild. Like a 300gr boolit and 53-55gr 4198 so to speak. PP boolits seat easier than sabots. I never liked that with smokeless I need tight sabot loads, nor do I like plastic in my barrel

[Nobade]

I recognize the author of that article - I bet he'll chime in here shortly. He's the one who nudged me over the edge to try some BH209. Great stuff, I just wish it wasn't so expensive!

-Nobade

[1845greyhounds]

Moto357, I have a 50 cal Savage ML10-II. So far I've only shot .452 & .458 j-words in sabots with AA5744. The plastic sabots work (well), but I just don't like using them. I'd prefer the projectile to be closer to bore size. I may yet rebarrel to 0.452 or 0.458"... In reflection, for as little as I shoot my ML and as well as the sabots work, I should probably leave it well enough alone.

I read somewhere, maybe Doug's forum, that SML work best (consistent velocity & ignition) with very tight fitting projectiles. I took this to mean that the projectile had to resist proceeding down the barrel just long enough for a critical amount of powder to ignite. Further, it seems they want the gas expansion rate balanced to keep accelerating the projectile without bypassing the projectile. I think this is why some folks use duplex charges with very fast and relatively slow smokeless powder. This results in fast, reliable ignition and a 'soft' yet accelerating push down the barrel. As I understand it, black powder, or its substitutes, provide a gentler acceleration of the projectile than smokeless powder. It would probably work well with PP boolits.

I suspect your elongated projectiles had way excessive gas bypass that removed the paper and nearly melted the boolit while the bypassing gas stretched the boolit long.

[moto357]

Shot the gun again yesterday, but with the cold and wind I wasn't to enthused about spend more time playing with my pp loads. For the heck of it before I left I shot two. This boolit is from a mt mold, lube grooved 390 .453 cast of 20:1 this time. Shot with 20gr trail boss and two veg wads under boolit. Here's the results


Shows me I at least have a starting place!

[johnson1942]

i would have said something before but i didnt see the post untill today. their is no reason you cant pp a inline and as far as powder. blackhorn 209 powder is perfect for it. no wipeing between rounds and in fact the small amount of dry dust from the charge helps in loading and accuracy. also try reloader 7 and see what happens, never know it may work. a non member of cast boolits and a shooter of moderninlines is winning about every 500 yard meet he enters. he uses blackhorn 209 and calls me now and then to run by bullet design. he is trying to use as hard a bullet he can and still have it bump up. it boils down to this, a nice deep hollow base with a stout lip will greatly aide in bumping up a bullet.when a 60 thousands thick fiber or poly wad pushes hard against a hollow base, even 20 to 1 will bump up for me. he tried some wheel weight lead and that didnt work. i told him to try 30 to 1 and throw a piece of silver solder that melts at 700 degrees into the pot and he may get what he wants. he pushes them 2200 ft per second and the noses tended to bend over. a cupped base and some silver in the lead and tin mix may or may not work at that speed. also for info, i now only use 18 pound poly coated freezer wrap paper and chase patch single wrap my bullets. they never fail to fly straight and the paper never ever clings to the bullet. i never size after wrapping and the bullets are sized so when wrapped as loading they just fit perfectly into the bore. they dont go down hard or too easy and wont come off of the powder but stay their. also when i siad try reloader 7 i ment in a smokeless inline only. i use only the 209 powder because it is so accurate a powder and no need to clean between shots. since ive gone to the chase single wrap system shooting have become very boreing if those are the right words. no tweeking, just shoot and shoot and hit what your aiming at. i dont use a starter as their is no need for that. just wrap the bullet and place on top of a wad and down the bore it goes. i did have a 50 cal that the bore was slightly larger than .50 and my bullets are .492 diam so i used 20 pound computer paper for the single wrap and that worked perfectly with that gun. i got 1200 ft per second with only 70 grains of powder by volume out of that one. the bullets weight was 686 grains, that was like a freight train going down the range.