Loading black?

[John Boy]

Bill - here's the message from Yahoo trying to view the picture:
This photo is private.

Oops! You don't have permission to view this photo.

You should be able to post the Sharps Poster directly here in the forum. I for one would be very desirous to see it and add to my references

[barnaclebill]

Bill - here's the message from Yahoo trying to view the picture:
This photo is private.

Oops! You don't have permission to view this photo.

You should be able to post the Sharps Poster directly here in the forum. I for one would be very desirous to see it and add to my references

I will have to get this image thing figured out so I can post it in High Res.

[barnaclebill]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3175/...9128df02_b.jpg

[img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3175/2573117278_509128df02_b.jpg
[/img]

[barnaclebill]

Sorry For Now

For now the uploaded image is only about 1.4MP and I cannot find a site to be able to post it full size at 5MP. Ideas would be appreciated. Can a 5MP picture be posted on this site? How?

BB

[John Boy]

Bill, first of all ... Much Thanks for the Chart. It is a unique look at the cartridges out of Hartford.

As for the size, one can download the chart and with their photo editor, enlarge it

You may want to try using WinZip to compress the 5mp file and then posting it as an attachment. The Zip file can a maximum 97.7mb in size to be able to post it on the forum

[montana_charlie]

I am happy to see that chart for another reason.

You know the "aka" guys? I mean those shooters who are sticklers for correct terminology when it comes to 'naming' their caliber.

One might make a statement like this...

"Yep, I went to the range today with my new .45-90 (aka .45 2 4/10ths Sharps Straight) to see if I could make it shoot as well as my .45-70 Government (aka .45 2 1/10 Sharps Straight) or my .45-120 (aka .45 3 1/4 Sharps Straight).

I think I'm really gonna like this .45 4/10ths SS cartridge (aka .45-90 Winchester) because it's ultra cool."

By the time I get done wading through all of the aka's, I don't care if he shot his foot off!

But, now...I can just show him the picture, and ask which one of those has a title under it that matches his "aka".
CM

[Mumblypeg]

Holy Cow! I am gona ax a question and I hope it don't take as long to anser as the things that barnacal bill axed.
I'v been working with my 38-55 Uberti trying to get it to shoot what I would call a good group with smokeless and got fusstrated due to the fact that it has failed to meet my expectations thus far. Now I recall that this is an old blackpowder cartrige so with my fusstration an all I just desided to load the cases up with holy black... best group so far. But that's not my question. Now I have plenty of ML ers and know how to clean them, no problem but what all do you do to this High Wall? Do you guys take the actions apart to clean the inside and if so anybody got instructions for a High Wall. I've been into all my other guns, no.1's, marlins etc. just never been into high wall.
You know this stuff is more intertaining than Jepordy!

[John Boy]

...but what all do you do to this High Wall? Do you guys take the actions apart to clean the inside and if so anybody got instructions for a High Wall.

Peg - I don't and I Won't! HiWall's are a pure pain if you haven't stood next to a competent gunsmith to disassembly and put back together. They look simple, but they ain't.

If you must - take off the wood - douse the innards good - blow dry and put the wood back on.

I too would like to see a disassembly procedure for HiWalls

[4060MAY]

Uberti Highwall not Browning/winchester Maruoko
Remove the forend
loosen the lever spring
loosen the little screw that holds the lever pin
remove leverpin
block and lever should drop out the bottom while holding the trigger
if DST push the rear trigger forward.

[azduke]

I'm new to loading black powder cartridges,loading for a reproduction .45-60 and a new rolling block in .45-70.What is the Lyman 55 and should I load to the bottom of the bullet

[405]

I'm new to loading black powder cartridges,loading for a reproduction .45-60 and a new rolling block in .45-70.What is the Lyman 55 and should I load to the bottom of the bullet

The Lyman 55 is a powder measure that has been around for a long time. Both the original version and the black powder version are near identical. The BP version they say is designed for safety with non sparking metal on the drum parts. I have both. Even my old 55 looks to be made that way??? And YES, just as in muzzle loader BP loading no air space between powder and bullet. That space can also be taken up with card wad (s). The wad can be thought of as a fiber gas check and helps to protect a plain base bullet's base and is used also to separate the powder charge from a grease cookie if one is used.

[barnaclebill]

I am still here !

My reloading stuff was mostly on back order and took them 7 weeks to ship it WOW !

So now just waiting for the UPS man to arrive.

I think the cartridge belt for 45-120 Sharps was the problem.

Glad to see you are all still there.

BB

[barnaclebill]

Well I got my reloading stuff yesterday for my Sharps 45-120 and the Sharps 50-90

I used Cerrosafe today for the first time----but the 2nd time actually worked. I took a cast of my 45-120 and the Cerrosafe slug came out to the following dimensions

Bore length for the brass was 3.176" Exactly the Same length as the brass from Buffalo Arms
Rifling measured .458" at the very end nearest the breech and .456" 3/4" further up the rifling.

Without going to a custom mold what would be a recommended bullet to cast or purchase ? Long range Target shooting is primary use. Field mice shooting may be a second target.

I got the book on Loading and Shooting paper Patched Bullets by Randolph Wright as you all recommended and think I will give paper patching a try also.

Got my Lyman Orange Crusher Press [gray now] 50 brass 45-120 , 50 brass 50-90 , 3 die set for 45-120, 3 die set for 50-90, Shell holders, Rooster Labs BP Bullet Lube, Cerrosafe, and Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West.

No Primers
No Paper Patches
No Powder---I would like to do Duplex Loads
No Bullets


recommendations on these items will be appreciated.

I know I am missing something here besides EXPERIENCE !

Thanks

Barnacle Bill

[13Echo]

"I know I am missing something here besides EXPERIENCE !"

Oh boy. If you only knew how this grows to take over.

Well since you're loading black you'll need compression plugs in .45 and .50, proper sized expansion plugs for soft lead bullets, extra die bodies to hold the plugs, a good supply of Fg black powder (those cartridges can really go through a lot of powder in a hurry) try Goex to start, bullets cast in an appropriate alloy (30 to 20:1 lead to tin) with an appropriate black powder lube (many choices, SPG, Black Magic, home brewed, etc), wads of various types and thickness to try (a lot of shooters use and like LDPE in .003 to .006" thickness), primers (try a variety, many like CCI, My rifle seems to like Rem 9 /12), rifle cleaning supplies - a really good, heavy duty rod, appropriate jags, and patches, proper BP solvent (water works as good as anything), proper oils and solvents to finish (don't use anything with ammonia! If it is a copper solvent don't use it with black!)

For the 45 try a bullet like the Lyman Postel or Paul Jones Creedmoor of about 500 to 540gs. For the .50, well for any distance, you're going to need a bullet of at least 600 grs. Good moulds come from Lyman, Saeco, RCBS. Custom and semi-custom from Paul Jones, Brooks, NEI, Buffalo Arms, etc. Cast diameter of the bullet should equal groove diameter or be just a tad larger. Slightly small bullets may bump up but this isn't always reliable.

Since you're on the cast bullet site I presume you have some equipment. No? Then, eventually, you are going to want to a lead pot, alloy, dipper, moulds and mould handles.

It's amazing how this all accumulates.

Good shooting.

Jerry Liles

[Don McDowell]

Go to www.sageoutfitters.com , they can fix you up with excellent bullets and wads .
Then hop over to grafs and get an order in for 1f powder and maybe some Goex Cartridge , and the primer of your choosing.
If your 3 die set is of the lyman variety, and has the M die it can be used fairly effectively for a powder compression die , should you actually think you need to compress the powder.
A slow drop thru the 24 inch droptube of a Lyman 55 bp measure works to settle the powder down in the case real well.

[barnaclebill]

When I made up that drawing, I secretly wondered if you might have odd numbers of lands and grooves.

I have never had that situation, but the best remedy I have heard (without needing special equipment) is to take one of the thinner steel leaves from a set of feeler gages and wrap it snugly around the slug.
Measure that diameter, then subtract the thickness (times two) of the leaf.

That will only give you groove diameter, but that is the dimension you will size bullets to, anyway.

Another approach to choosing a bullet diameter is this...
Do a chamber cast of the rifle. You will probably want one eventually, anyway.

Measure the diameter of the 'freebore' (the area in the chamber between the end of the case and the start of the rifling) and choose a bullet which most nearly fills THAT diameter.

That is the dimension I go by all of the time...rather than my groove diameter.
Because the bullet (when it 'bumps up') is going to fill that space, anyway....I feel you may as well start out with a slug that fits the hole.

BTW, that chamber cast is going to tell you some other important things like chamber depth and freebore length.
CM

I previously did a slug of my 45-120 with the 5 grooves and measured it again and mysteriously this time when I rotate the slug in the calipers the max dimension is .456"...a couple days ago I received my Cerrosafe metal and took a cast of the chamber including 1 1/2" of the bore. Measuring with the same technique I get .455". If I measure the diameter at the very end of the freebore just before the start of the rifling I measure .468"...BIG difference. very hard to measure the bore with 5 grooves.

[barnaclebill]

Use the measurement that is the larger of them to start with. Try it and see how it works for accuracy and any tendency to lead the bore. ( Assuming proper bullet alloy and lube.) Recover bullets and examine them for fit. Look at the land and groove engraving on the bullet. Are they completely filled out? Is there any evidence of slipping? Is there excessive lead behind the bullet (on the bullet base) at each land where it displaced bullet metal?

Those things will give you an idea of whether or not the bullet fits your barrel. A potential problem I see in what you have said here is that the normal cast diameter of bullets designed for .45 caliber rifles are larger than the measuremnents you have given here. If you size those bullets down to say .453 or .454 or there abouts, you are going to be sizing them a lot. In my experience, that does not do anything good for accuracy. You may have to pop for a custom mould, but that is no biggie because if you are going to do good shooting, you need a good mould anyway and Lyman does not make them.

Of course, you may size those suckers down 6 or 7 thousands and they still shoot good. There is always the exception.

This is all a part of loading and shooting these rifles. Almost everyone goes through some of this in one way or another working up accurate loads. Don't be discouraged. If it was easy, everybody could do it. Just go through the process until you get a good load.

As 405 has correctly said, it's all about bullet /barrel fit and then finding out what velocity your rifle likes for that bullet, or IF it likes that bullet at all, and make up a load to drive the bullet at that speed. Then you can experiment with bullet alloy, powders, primers, wads, lubes, seating depth, compression ratios, enlarging flash holes, crimps and so on, but that is the fun part of all of this.

BTW, got any idea of the barrel twist rate on those rifles?

I finally got my Lyman press and brass and now for the bullets. I was going to order some complete cartridges from Buffalo but decided to do my own instead. The bullets from Buffalo for the original Sharps are .459" But after doing a Cerrosafe cast and slugging I get a dimension of .455". I may be fretting all this too much but Isn't .459" too big? I am trying to avoid resizing costs for now till I get the hang of all this. Can a reloading press be used or is a sizing press required?....or a hammer? I have measured till I am blue and am just not comfortable yet with my options. Maybe paper patched? Options???????
Thanks
Barnacle

[405]

BBill,
Not quite sure what to make of the huge throat diameter and the small goove diameter???

I'm not sure if you were asking about swaging down or resizing a bullet with a large arbor swaging press or just using a regular reloading press with a bullet sizer die. Something like a Lee bullet sizer die works easily in regular press.

Order a few normal .458 or .459 cast bullets in a reasonable weight range 400-500 gr. Order a Lee bullet sizer in .457. Push the .458 or .459 bullets thru and load some and shoot.

For smokeless loads you might try 5744 powder. Lyman shows some 45-120 data for smokeless. I think you said you're gun was original? If so I'd just stay with blackpowder. For black just GOEX FFG with a fiber card or two along with a small pea size gob of BP lube on top or between card wads then lightly compress the bullet onto the charge column. Adjust the BP charge thus the loaded cartridge OAL so that the nose or front drive band just makes contact with the lands. Make note of the hardness of the bullets tried (BHN) number. Probably should start with BP lubed bullets (like SPG) with a BHN range of 8-15.

Later, you can open up the Lee sizer if needed in small increments as you load test- not a big deal if you're handy. For an "estimated" .455 groove dimension no problem starting at .457 bullet. Sizing down bullets by even several thou is not a problem. You could even get the .454 Lee die and run the .458-.459 bullets thru it to test the loads then open it up if needed.

Still.... that big throat diameter may be problematic... just have to see how the loads and gun act. Clean often and note excessive fouling or leading. Keep us posted

[barnaclebill]

BBill,
Not quite sure what to make of the huge throat diameter and the small goove diameter???

I'm not sure if you were asking about swaging down or resizing a bullet with a large arbor swaging press or just using a regular reloading press with a bullet sizer die. Something like a Lee bullet sizer die works easily in regular press.

Order a few normal .458 or .459 cast bullets in a reasonable weight range 400-500 gr. Order a Lee bullet sizer in .457. Push the .458 or .459 bullets thru and load some and shoot.

For smokeless loads you might try 5744 powder. Lyman shows some 45-120 data for smokeless. I think you said you're gun was original? If so I'd just stay with blackpowder. For black just GOEX FFG with a fiber card or two along with a small pea size gob of BP lube on top or between card wads then lightly compress the bullet onto the charge column. Adjust the BP charge thus the loaded cartridge OAL so that the nose or front drive band just makes contact with the lands. Make note of the hardness of the bullets tried (BHN) number. Probably should start with BP lubed bullets (like SPG) with a BHN range of 8-15.

Later, you can open up the Lee sizer if needed in small increments as you load test- not a big deal if you're handy. For an "estimated" .455 groove dimension no problem starting at .457 bullet. Sizing down bullets by even several thou is not a problem. You could even get the .454 Lee die and run the .458-.459 bullets thru it to test the loads then open it up if needed.

Still.... that big throat diameter may be problematic... just have to see how the loads and gun act. Clean often and note excessive fouling or leading. Keep us posted

Thanks
As for the throat diameter I am a little confused I think. When I measure the Cerrosafe slug I get .463" dia. grooves at a point just before the throat chamber starts. At the point where the throat chamber ends just before the grooves start the dia. is .476". I sized one of my brass and the diameter at the very end is .475". The thickness of the brass is .oo9" and fits the chamber nicely with just a touch of tightness.. When I push a lead ball through the dia. is .454".

I realize that my numbers keep changing but I have used 3 pairs of good calipers and taken the measurements several times keeping careful not to damage the slug. I cannot account for the differences.

Lee Sizer
You mentioned "opening up the Lee Sizer" I thought the sizers were all made to a particular size and non adjustable. Could you please elaborate on this a little for me? I am planning to use my new Lyman reloading press for sizing.

Thanks Loads
Bill

[405]

bbill,
I think it's making more sense now. I thought of the possibility that you were measuring the transition from chamber (portion where case fits) to actual bore. The throat is a transition between the chamber and the bore.... that's why the varying measurements from end of chamber to bore. Sounds like you are probably ok to begin testing.

If your best estimate of groove diameter is .454-.455... would be good to start with bullet of about .455. Yes, the Lee bullet sizers come in sizes. But they can be opened up without too much trouble. (can go into that later and the info has been posted here a few times- so is somewhere in archives) The current sizes Lee offers include .452, .454 then jump to .457. If you have .457 bullets on hand you can run a few thru the .454 sizer to see how your gun likes them. If you get more leading than should be or the accuracy is not what should be you can open the die up to .455, size a few bullets at that diameter and test.... and so on. If you go with straight .457 bullet it may be problematic in seating depth in case, may not shoot as well and may cause a too tight chamber fit with the loaded round. To test the chambering- seat a .457 bullet without powder and chamber the dummy. You should have some clearance between case and chamber walls for safety and ease of chambering. This will also let you get a feel for max OAL where bullet contacts lands. Doesn't have to be much chamber wall clearance along bullet shank maybe .001-.002.

.....as the equipment list grows