Loading black?

[barnaclebill]

NOW we are making music! You are on the right track Bbill.

I just took a real close look at the 45-120 slug I made and it has 5 grooves The 50-90 has 3 grooves so there are no grooves opposite each other to measure accurately. What do you do in a case like this?
Wish I knew how to play Guitar ! I can build one but can't play it.
BB

[Black Prince]

Bbill

There are days when I wish I could play them dern gitfiddle things too.

When I have been in the situation that you are, I took the largest measurement that I could get on the slug and used it as a starting place. This is shooting; It ain't rocket science. A lot of what we do is "about" right because a lot of rifle manfacturing was "about right" or "as close as we can get." You can measure several barrels of the same caliber from good rifle makers and often get plus or minus 3 thousands difference. That is because allowable tolerances are plus or minus one thousand. You will be within 3 thousands on your measurement of the slug, even if you can not get exactly across opposing grooves, so you are "about" as close as you can get.

In this BP shooting business, 3 thousands can be a lot or not, depending on a lot of variable factors. Don't get bogged down in that kind of thing. Take the best measurement that you can and move on with it. Even if it isn't exact, it's better than guessing what it is.

As 405 has explained, there is a bump up factor in shooting BP with lead bullets that are essentually plastic under the condition of barrel presssure, and it can help size the bullet to fit the barrel. It is best to start with the bullet being as close to correct diameter as you can get, but it does not have to be exact. Your rifle accuracy, or lack of it will tell you if it is "close enough" when you shoot it. Bullet sizing dies are cheap. Try several different sizes if you need to and find the one that works best in your rifle. Then get a bullet mould to cast a bullet close to that size so that you size it as little as possible before shooting it. The best of all possible worlds is to have it come from the mould and go right in the rifle without any sizing at all. That however, is sometimes a little hard to achieve given that the metal shrinks in the mould as it cools.

Get "close enough" and your rifle will shoot fine. It's like picking a guitar; Get "close enough" to the note, and as long as it's in the same key, it won't make much difference.

[montana_charlie]

I just took a real close look at the 45-120 slug I made and it has 5 grooves The 50-90 has 3 grooves so there are no grooves opposite each other to measure accurately.

When I made up that drawing, I secretly wondered if you might have odd numbers of lands and grooves.

I have never had that situation, but the best remedy I have heard (without needing special equipment) is to take one of the thinner steel leaves from a set of feeler gages and wrap it snugly around the slug.
Measure that diameter, then subtract the thickness (times two) of the leaf.

That will only give you groove diameter, but that is the dimension you will size bullets to, anyway.

Another approach to choosing a bullet diameter is this...
Do a chamber cast of the rifle. You will probably want one eventually, anyway.

Measure the diameter of the 'freebore' (the area in the chamber between the end of the case and the start of the rifling) and choose a bullet which most nearly fills THAT diameter.

That is the dimension I go by all of the time...rather than my groove diameter.
Because the bullet (when it 'bumps up') is going to fill that space, anyway....I feel you may as well start out with a slug that fits the hole.

BTW, that chamber cast is going to tell you some other important things like chamber depth and freebore length.
CM

[405]

I just took a real close look at the 45-120 slug I made and it has 5 grooves The 50-90 has 3 grooves so there are no grooves opposite each other to measure accurately. What do you do in a case like this?
Wish I knew how to play Guitar ! I can build one but can't play it.
BB

A sluggers greatest fear- the odd land/groove conundrum

Since all you are trying to do is to get to ballpark bullet diameter to start so you don't invest or waste a bunch of time and effort into grossly undersized bullets that won't work well, fear not! A couple of months ago I had the same problem slugging a bore with odd number of lands/grooves. It was a 43 Spanish Rolling Block- an odd critter anyway! I slugged as usual. Using a large magnifying lighted lupe I did a best guess estimate measurement across the tops of the groove impressions on the slug at points corresponding to a line intersecting the center of the slug as nearly as possible. That would be on top of one edge of a groove impression to the top edge of the opposing groove impression. The geometry of it is that it will give a slightly undersized reading of the true diameter but close enough! I added .001 to that figure for good measure. In this case my measurement as described was close to .439. I sized some 385 gr soft cast plain based bullets to .440. Loaded up some mild smokeless rounds with 5744 and yipee. Excellent accuracy and minimal leading and fouling!!!! Success on first try. Was it exact rocket science- no. Did it work- exceedingly well. Yet is was ballpark only.

Another way would is to carefully and lightly wrap the slug with some thin but stiff foil. Measure across the diameter, subtract 2X the thickness of the foil. The figure should be close to the true diameter. But it is tedious and a little tricky to get exact. Still no worries- just looking for ballpark figure This method may work a little better for the 50 cal three groove.

Sorry again mt charlie and BP! Didn't mean to step on your posts. Seems like we're all on the same wavelength on this one and posting simultaneously. Also, barnacle, looks like the A Team is on it!

Good luck!

[barnaclebill]

A sluggers greatest fear- the odd land/groove conundrum


Another way would is to carefully and lightly wrap the slug with some thin but stiff foil. Measure across the diameter, subtract 2X the thickness of the foil. The figure should be close to the true diameter. But it is tedious and a little tricky to get exact. Still no worries- just looking for ballpark figure This method may work a little better for the 50 cal three groove.

Sorry again mt charlie and BP! Didn't mean to step on your posts. Seems like we're all on the same wavelength on this one and posting simultaneously. Also, barnacle, looks like the A Team is on it!

Good luck!

Did some more measuring at the corner of the grooves and the numbers are

45-120 5 grooves .457" 29" barrel 1 1/4 twist
50-90 3 grooves .512" 20" barrel 3/4 twist

Do these numbers make more sense?

BB

[Black Prince]

Now look Bbill, if you are going to try to do this right, you are going to have to go all the way or none. So if you want to measure the slugs and the twist rates on those original rifles, you are going to have to get in the right "spirit" and frame of mind. You wouldn't be having this trouble if you were in the right '"spirit." So here's what you have to do now:

First you are going to have to be purified. I ain't kidding you. The best way to do that is in a sweat lodge while breathing some white sage that you have in the water that you sprinkle on the hot rocks every now and then to make the steam ya see? You don't smoke it now; you breathe it. It'll clear out all of the crap in your mind and allow you to concentrate on the important things.

That'll bring you to the second issue; you'll have visions of great heards of buffalo and be one with the Great Spirit. This is a very kool thing. You will feel like you are weightless and that you can fly. You will know the secrets of the universe.

Third. You'll come out of the sweat lodge nekkid and dance around the fire while all the members of this board poke sharp sticks at your privates.

Yeah. I KNOW it's a tuff thing to have to do, but dang it, do you wanna know this stuff or not? And besides that, most of these boys are old and they can't see well enough to stick you with those sharp sticks, but I remember this one ole boy that just seemed to get stuck ever time and after he got out of the emergency room , he . . . well, he doesn't come around here anymore. He was a poor sport if you ask me. I'll bet he still can't measure a slugged barrel.

Come to think on it, your numbers make more sense that getting your privates poked with sharp sticks. I'd use them if I were you and just forget about being as one with the great spirit.

[405]

barnacle,
Much better and makes more sense! Now when you order bullets to load in those you can make a better guess for bullet diameters. For starting out just order small quantities of bullets to reload, and let the gun tell you what it likes. For example : without having done the measurements but given the numbers you have for the 45 cal I'd order a few bullets of .458 and a few at .459. Maybe in the 20:1 to 30:1 alloy range. Lubed with BP type lube of course

I wouldn't start at the heaviest either. I think you were giving the total twist for the barrels. The standard unit of measure for barrel twist is inches per one revolution . So I think by converting I get something like a 1:23 twist in the 45 cal and 1:27 in the 50 cal. An easy way to measure for the unit so everyone is talking same language is: Lay gun in a cradle or cleaning holder. Take a cleaning rod with jag and snug fitting patch. Place patch in muzzle and move up and down bore a couple of times. This ensures the patch and rod to be tracking the same as the rifling. Situate so patch is about two inches into the bore at muzzle end. Mark the exact top of rod at edge of muzzle. Place similar marks at two inch intervals down the top of the rod say from about 18 inches to about 28 inches. That should cover most of the range we need for these barrels. Slowly push the rod in until one of the marks makes one rev and comes back to exact top. Measure from the first mark to that mark = inches per rev = twist rate. The 45 should show about 1:23 or (23:1 if you wish) and the 50 about 1:27. IF so that's it!! Then a judgement can be made and information exchanged here and elsewhere about various bullet possibilities.... the idea being stability of the bullet in flight.

To start, in the 45 cal I'd try something like a bullet in the 400-450 gr range. If tempted to get up into the 500-550 gr range like the long range big boys shoot stability may get iffy. I know for example that a 45-110 loaded with BP with a twist of 1:18 (tighter twist than the 1:23) will stabilize a 520 gr bullet to long range. One of the Gov service rounds for the 45-70 trapdoor with a twist of 1:22 used a 500 grain bullet and it proved to be stable but was probably nearing the limit.

Keep on pluggin'

[Black Prince]

To add a little to the information 405 has correctly provided above,

Analyze before loading. Always stay within the bullet weight intended for your twist rate. Try to select a bullet with the longest bore surface, best balanced, shortest ogive to tip measurement, highest ballistic coefficient, and best sectional density, in that order.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/ = good sight calibration calculator free on the Internet.
http://www.z-hat.com/twistrate.htm = barrel/bullet twist rate calculator that is free on the internet, or use the table below:

.458 = bullet diameter
Column one= bullet length in inches
Column two= twist rate needed to stabilize bullet
1.374 to 1.424 1 in 27
1.425 to 1.480 1 in 26
1.481 to 1.541 1 in 25
1.542 to 1.606 1 in 24
1.607 to 1.678 1 in 23
1.679 to 1.756 1 in 22
1.757 to 1.841 1 in 21
1.842 to 1.936 1 in 20
1.937 to 2.040 1 in 19
2.041 to 2.157 1 in 18
2.158 to 2.288 1 in 17
2.289 to 2.435 1 in 16
2.436 to 2.603 1 in 15
2.604 to 2.796 1 in 14
2.797 to 3.020 1 in 13

What this is saying is the slower the rate of twist, the shorter (and thus lighter) the bullet has to be to be stabilized, or the faster the rate of twist, the longer (and thus, heavier) the bullet you can stabilize and shoot accurately in that barrel. Keep in mind that the rotational velocity, or stabilization velocity, is a function of two things: One is the twist rate of the barrel, and the other is linear velocity. All other things being equal, the faster you drive the bullet down the barrel (linear velocity), the faster it will spin and the heavier (longer) bullet it will shoot accurately. The limiting factor on that is how far the bullet will maintain its velocity down range. While rotational velocity decays at a slower rate than linear velocity, it does slow down the further down range the bullet goes. So if you want to shoot a heavy bullet very far, you need a relatively faster twist rate, and you need to move the bullet down range at a sufficient enough speed (linear velocity) to maintain rotational velocity to the distance you want to shoot.

This beats the heck out of getting poked with sharp sticks to learn how some of this stuff works.

[405]

to what Black Prince said. Couldn't have said or presented it any better.

[Nardoo]

Shootin' my 45/90 with its steel butt plate and no shirt on is kinda like being poked in the privates with a stick. I hit the long gong five outa five at the last Rondy an' all the guys started talkin' about sharp sticks. And when I buy more Sharpses my wife threatens to get a sharp stick too.
This is an old Indian custom aint it, this pointy stick thing?

Nardoo

[Black Prince]

Hee, hee. Shore seems that way sometimes don't it? A squaw with a sharp stick can ruin your whole day and play hell with your rifle shooting. Maybe we oughta work up a table to determine the velocity we need to be moving to be able to avoid a squaw with a sharp stick? I'd say our velocity ought to be hers plus 10 unless she has a habit of throwing those sharp sticks. If that is the case, our velocity needs to be hers plus about 50. Bbill is an engineer and he can work out the formulas and calculate the tables. As evidenced by the fact that he has all of those nice rifles, I'll bet he has already figured this out. I'm trying to get a kitchen pass to go to the shooting range from the chief squaw, so I don't have time to do it.

[barnaclebill]

Postell, pyrodex, Grease Cookie, Roosters, FFFg, Moist burning Powder--And I thought one of the main saynigs was "keep your powder dry" Lubricants, Alox, Beeswax, centrifugal Force and G's [that one I know] Crisco, [thought it was for baking] Cold putty, Lubricity, vaseline [Yup--used that too] Sperm whale oil [the only ingredient I have] , Velocity. Acceleration, Pressure, wax paper, [do they make that anymore?]Grease Cookie [again-I just like that word and want to use it] Vaporize, wadcutter, Minie Lube, injectors, grease wad extruder, [ this is getting exciting]Twist, Naked Bullets, [must be one of my past girlfriends], GOEX, Pope, nose diameter, Vernier, Snover, Fouling, wheel weights, linotype, dwell time, Paper patched, reducing dies, smokeless, fluxing, spru hole, grains, cutoff plate , hard spru, driving bands, cavitation, neck die, flash hole deburring, [ I know,don't enlarge the flash hole], decapping, resizing, Duplex [I like the idea of not cleaning after every shot], Fouling, volumetric, SR-4759, Flare, primer, Compress, taper, scoops, dribble, drop tube, compressing, lubricating wad, "the "tragedy " of it all, GREASE COOKIE !

Just read " Loading the Black Powder Rifle Cartridge" Matthews.

This just looks dead easy

Translation
Pour powder in case and push in a bullet.
As an Engineer-------I like this !
Barnacle Bill

Thanks all for the latest help

[Black Prince]

I know what you mean Bill. I've watched engineers build large buildings. They just dig a hole, pour a lot of concrete and steel in it, and a building results. It just looks dead easy.

[barnaclebill]

I know what you mean Bill. I've watched engineers build large buildings. They just dig a hole, pour a lot of concrete and steel in it, and a building results. It just looks dead easy.

I thought it was that easy....

And just why can they not make moist burning Powder today?

[13Echo]

Moist burning powders could be made today but it would be labor intensive and therefore costly. According to the Mad Monk the secret is the preparation of the charcoal which involves choosing the best species, the proper size and age of the wood, and careful charing to have the proper percent of carbon and residues which includes wood creosote (not the same stuff used to preserve cross ties and powerpoles). All this required a lot of hand labor, much more so than merely cutting a maple tree and charing the wood. Swiss comes the closest as it uses black alder collected from pollarded trees at about 8 years old, stripped of bark, and carefully charred at a relatively low temperature. After this incorporation requires more time than typically done today and a long time tumbling in the polishing barrels to get the desired finish. Swiss is good as is the new Express powder from Goex but the best of the old time powders were reportedly better still.

Jerry Liles

[barnaclebill]

This is an interesting history lesson that I never knew---Thanks

As usual they just made things better in the good ol days. [except computers]

[barnaclebill]

I thought it was that easy....

And just why can they not make moist burning Powder today?

I am still here and just reading up on all the books I can find. Found lymans #47 on ebay so it is on the way.

I decided not to buy loaded ammunition but to just jump in and reload. Brass on the way.
Thanks again for all the help and I will be back in touch as I progress with this little project but as always a lot of other duties get in the way.

Books are very interesting reading but the advice I get here is PRICELESS !

By the way---is extruded formed Brass better or worse than the machined ones?

[405]

barnacle! good so see you're still with us.
I'm not sure of your exact question about the brass. Most is extruded. The base, primer and flash holes are usually swaged/punched, but can be swaged then drilled/machined. Each type of user/ reloader has their preferences. Most BPCR shooters like fairly thin neck walls, soft necks, and regular hard bases. When in doubt or have a choice get the thinner neck wall thickness type. Everyone likes concentric and even wall thickness. Depends on the application or pressure, chamber dimensions, best bullet diameter, etc.

I think??? you are referring to say 45-120 brass that began life as something else then was re-formed, trimmed or further drawn or lengthened to correct length. There is little demand for volume production for many of the obsolete types so manufacturers may never set up to produce it in quantity from their big machines. Instead, smaller companies with special extruders/swages/spinners/drawing dies use a more common parent case then re-form to the more obsolete. An example is the 40-70 SS. A lot of that started life as 30-40 Krag then was turned into 40-70SS ... and so on. The 45-75 Win is a real bugger

As far as any of it being better or worse?? Don't know, again depends on application or subjective likes or dislikes or experiences. Chevy or Ford- some folks don't like Ford because grandpa didn't or a Ford broke down 50 years ago, etc. I like a lot of the Starline brass, I like Bell or Jamison, I like Winchester but have found some of their special run brass in odd calibers to be not so good. Remington is OK. Hornady seems to be good. I use Bertram when it's necessary but it can be good or not so good and it's always expensive. My favorite brass makers usually don't apply here- Norma and Lapua. One caveat about universal cases like the 45 Basic. It can be trimmed to the shorter lengths BUT beware the trimmed cases may have very thick neck walls that can interfere with chamber clearance for chambering or bullet release. That could happen (I've had it happen) with minimum chamber neck and larger bullets for larger groove diameters. I reform some cases from different parent cases but prefer to use correct headstamped brass.

[barnaclebill]

Thanks

Got my Lymans #47 today and about to read up more. My brass is from Starline. I am going to take some castings of my chambers to see what I have. Looking forward to the big reloading day but want to make sure I try and do it sortta right.

BB

[barnaclebill]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27653389@N08/2573117278/
please do not quote this link in a message

If this link works right it is a high res photo I just took of a very old Sharps Poster of all the Cartridges they made. It is to scale so you can blow it up and print it to original image size 17" X 23" on 18" X 24" paper and the cartridges will be actual size. If you have a resolution problem I will redo the photo in a higher resolution.Thanks again to all of you who have helped me along so far. I am still waiting for some back ordered reloading supplies, including Cerrosafe metal so I can make casts of my Chambers.

Enjoy the bit of history

BB