Loading black?

[floodgate]

barnacle bill:

GEEZ! That hurts. I can remember going down to Bob Abels' in New-York in the early '50's and seeing Henrys at his standard price of $90.00 each, and two barrels stuffed, muzzle-down, with Trapdoors and 1861-1863 Springfield and contractor CW rifle-muskets, your pick, at $15 each. I even spotted a full set of the three Trapdoor XR's at the same $15, but by the time I went home and looked them up in Gluckman and rushed back, someone else had scarfed them up. I even got a fine Japanese spring-lock Tanegashima matchlock at $50 from a posh Madison Ave. antique shop - half-off because the owner allowed as how it was all dusty from hanging on the wall so long. That one, at least, I've still got; but my wife won the $100 with bayonet India Pattern "Brown Bess" off me when I told her no-one could hit a beer bottle at 40 paces with a musket - NEVER BET AGAINST A WOMAN SHOOTER!

But then, how much were we earning per hour in 1950?

Fg

[Black Prince]

Glad that worked for you Badgeredd. I like it because I don't have to use a blow tube or clean the chamber or barrel even after 50 rounds. The smokeless burns the black so clean, I don't have to do anything but load in another cartridge and shoot. I get all the smoke and noise without all the messy cleaning or have to use that stupid blow tube. When I shoot NRA Iron Chicken matches, I have to do alla that crap because I shoot straight black powder as the rules require. It's a PIA!!

But when I'm out messing around, those duplex loads are Jim Dandy anywhere you are not REQUIRED to use all black powder.

Now Bbill,

if you want to quote something here, I just use html symbols like {quote} only you should use brackets insted of this {/quote} If I had used brackets, that would come out like this:

only you should use brackets instead of this

They have a neat way of doing it here that is a short cut, but I've never tried to use it and use html instead. Maybe some of these boys who are a lot smarter than me will explain to BOPHUS how to use the quote thingie here.

[EDK]

You need to get two books. SHOOTING BUFFALO RIFLES OF THE OLD WEST by Mike Venturino and LOADING AND SHOOTING PAPER PATCHED BULLLETS, A BEGINNER'S GUIDE by Randolph Wright. Buffalo Arms has them both.

Hang out at shilohrifle.com/forums and do some reading.

[barnaclebill]

You need to get two books. SHOOTING BUFFALO RIFLES OF THE OLD WEST by Mike Venturino and LOADING AND SHOOTING PAPER PATCHED BULLLETS, A BEGINNER'S GUIDE by Randolph Wright. Buffalo Arms has them both.

Hang out at shilohrifle.com/forums and do some reading.

I'm on it.
Thanks
BB

[barnaclebill]

[First slug the bores in your guns. Record those numbers in your load log book. At least the groove diameter should be recorded. You want bullets from groove diameter to about .002 larger than goove diameter.]

easier than I thought it would be.
45-120 had land diameters (groove in bore) of .4505 & .4530 average= .45175

50-90 had land diameters of .506 & .508 average= .507

The brackets didn't work

[Black Prince]

Bbill

Less try this one more time. If you wanted to quote what you did above, here is how I do it.
]quote[ First slug the bores in your guns. Record those numbers in your load log book. At least the groove diameter should be recorded. You want bullets from groove diameter to about .002 larger than goove diameter. ]/quote[

All you have to do to make that work as a quote in your post is turn the brackets around so they are opposed like this [quote].

There is an easier way to do it, but I don't know how to use the quote function here.

Oh heck!!! I just tried it. All you gotta do is type whatcha wanna quote and hit the quote thingie. Works good. HA. I say HA!

Yew did it in your post to EDK. Whatcha mean yew doan know how to do it? Are yew jerkin' my chain?

[barnaclebill]

You need to get two books. SHOOTING BUFFALO RIFLES OF THE OLD WEST by Mike Venturino and LOADING AND SHOOTING PAPER PATCHED BULLLETS, A BEGINNER'S GUIDE by Randolph Wright. Buffalo Arms has them both.

Hang out at shilohrifle.com/forums and do some reading.

Very interesting..When you said get the book "Loading and Shooting paper Patched Bullets" I had to do a bit of research as to what a paper patched bullet is. I think I have it figured out now and the interesting thing is that I thought this was a new idea for competition shooting. Well Today in the mail was my original poster printed by Sharps a LOOOOOOG time ago showing a life size drawing of each of the cartridges Sharps made. To my surprise it appears that many were paper patched. I also learned that there were 36 cal. paper and 52 cal. Linen bullets. Always learning more.


BB

[405]

[First slug the bores in your guns. Record those numbers in your load log book. At least the groove diameter should be recorded. You want bullets from groove diameter to about .002 larger than goove diameter.]

easier than I thought it would be.
45-120 had land diameters (groove in bore) of .4505 & .4530 average= .45175

50-90 had land diameters of .506 & .508 average= .507

The brackets didn't work

BB,
Looking at your numbers after you slugged those bores- need to make sure we are on same page and talking about the same measurements. Can make a huge difference when seeking best bullet diameter for bore dimensions.

Example:
Bore diameter (strict definition in our context)- the inside diameter of the rifle barrel as it was bored prior to rifling grooves being cut.

Groove diameter- the inside diameter of the of the rifle barrel between bottoms of opposing rifling grooves.

Lands- the raised portions in a rifle bore that are the remnants of the original bore surface that was not cut when the grooves were added. (could call land diameter the same as bore diameter in our context)

OK....When that slug pops out after driving thru it should have more or less the reverse imprint of the inside cross section dimensions of the bore. The widest diameters as measured on the slug would be the barrel groove diameter (opposing bottoms of the grooves)

Just looking at your +/- .451-2 that you are calling "groove in bore".... that mearuement seems closer to standard bore diameter in most 45 cal rifles. A .451-2 bore diameter usually means about .458-9 groove diameter.

Re-check your numbers and definitions.

Best bullet example: if the bore diameter on your 45-120 is about .451 and the groove diameter is somewhere around .458 you'll want to start trying bullets sized to about .458 then work up to about .460.

Since old guns can have wide variations of dimensions it's possible your groove diameter numbers are correct.... just making sure!!! might save a lot of headaches and poor shooting.

mt charlie,
Sorry, you beat me to the same idea! Hope this doesn't p on your hydrant

barnacle B
Yes, slugging a bore is very easy. Always surprised that some avoid it.
Yes, paper patching bullets has been around awhile- at least the early 1870s or before. You don't think Matthew Quigley would be out-of-period do you

Also added, a simplified drawing showing the "deal" about bores, slugs, etc.

Usually the best diameter bullet to start with is barrel groove diameter.

[Black Prince]

My dear Mr. Barnaclebill:

This distinguished body of highly educated, experienced, and dignified gentlemen at Cast Bullets is shocked by your use of what can only be correctly called, redneck slang. I am sure sir, I speak for many of the brotherhood here, when I say that I am aghast that you would use such language in our presence assuming as you obviously do, that we would understand a word of it.

We most certainly do not. If you intend to stay in our company sir, you will endeavor to make amends for your past actions, and in the future be particularly attentive to what you say and how you say it. We have already been traumatized and shaken by your brazen language, and we vigorously and emphatically denounce your caviler attitude towards members of this assemblage as evidenced by your presumption that we would comprehend such wretched vernacular.

Strict instructions have been issued to me by the secretary of this group to immediately place you on double secret probation, and to demand that you pay double dues during the probationary period of one year. Please forward your dues to me forthwith and without delay.

Your humble servant,

Mr. Black Prince

PS:

Ditto what 405 said.

[montana_charlie]

easier than I thought it would be.
45-120 had land diameters (groove in bore) of .4505 & .4530 average= .45175

50-90 had land diameters of .506 & .508 average= .507

Easy for you, maybe...but your numbers confused the heck outta me.

So, I made up this crude little drawing of a slug taken from a bore which has four lands and four grooves.

Measuring the lead slug from A to B gives you groove diameter (of the barrel), and measuring from C to D gives you the barrel's bore diameter.

A groove diameter of .458 is in the ballpark for being 'normal', and a bore diameter of .450 is 'nominal' for a .45 caliber rifle.

We do not expect (and will just be confused by) any numbers being 'averaged' when expressing these dimensions.
CM

[waksupi]

In case yonder aur any Rednecks reading dis I have done a li`l translation fer yew cheer.

Very interestin..When yew said git da book \"Loading `n` Shootin paper Patched Bullets\" I had ta do a bit of research as ta whut a paper patched bullet is. I recon I have it figured out now `n` da interestin thang is dat I thought dis was a new idea fer cumpetition shootin. Well Today in da mail was my original poster printed by Sharps a LOOOOOOG time ago showing a life size drawing of each of da cartridges Sharps made. Ta my surprise it appears dat many were paper patched. I also learned dat yonder were 36 cal. paper `n` 52 cal. Linen bullets. Always learnin mow

I can only hope the readers of this letter are as outraged as I am at Redneck hillbillys. To get right down to it, Redneck hillbillys parrots whatever ideas are fashionable at the moment. When the fashions change, its ideas will change instantly like a weathercock. If you think that Redneck hillbillys has the mandate of Heaven to commit all sorts of mortal sins -- not to mention an uncountable number of venial ones -- then think again. Believe it or not, I like to speak of Redneck hillbillys as "unstable". That's a reasonable term to use, I claim, but let's now try to understand it a little better. For starters, several things it has said have brought me to the boiling point. The statement of its that made the strongest impression on me, however, was something to the effect of how its mistakes are always someone else's fault.
My goal is to take a proactive, rather than a reactive, stance. I will not stint in my labor in this direction. When I have succeeded, the whole world will know that an understanding of the damage that may be caused by Redneck hillbillys's out-of-touch précis isn't something I expect everyone to develop the first time they hear about it. That's why I write over and over again and from so many different angles about how Redneck hillbillys's causeries would be absolutely risible if they weren't so incoherent. Let me express that same thought in slightly different terms: Redneck hillbillys has really pulled a fast one this time. That's pretty transparent. What's not so transparent is the answer to the following question: Is there anything that Redneck hillbillys can't make its lackeys believe? A clue might be that Redneck hillbillys's double standards reek like rotten eggs. I always catch hell whenever I say something like that so let me assure you that it is the picture of the insane person on the street, babbling to a tree, a wall, or a cloud, which cannot and does not respond to its tirades.
Sesquipedalianism doesn't work. So why does Redneck hillbillys cling to it? The most appealing theory has to do with the way that it's obviously a tragedy that Redneck hillbillys's goal in life is apparently to compose paeans to ageism. Here, I use the word "tragedy" as the philosopher Whitehead used it. Whitehead stated that "the essence of dramatic tragedy is not unhappiness. It resides in the solemnity of the remorseless working of things," which I interpret as saying that Redneck hillbillys's causing all sorts of problems for us. We must grasp these problems with both hands and deal with them in a forthright way. Redneck hillbillys is off its rocker. There, my ranting is finished.




BB[/quote]

[Black Prince]

Preach on brother. Halleluiah and AMEN!!

The wisdom on your sermon will be carved in stone and passed down through the ages. School children will be required to memorize it and recite it at the opening ceremonies of all official activities. Politicians will quote it in their speeches when they are attempting to sway voters to their cause. Yea I say unto you, these eternal words will live on without regard to the vicissitudes of time or space to become one with the universal mind. Your immortal words will become as those of Plato and Aristotle’s in the minds of all men throughout the land now and forever more.

And the double reverse backhand dog knot is always the best thing to use for trot lines in swift flowing rivers, especially if there is the possibility of catching an alligator, and there is always that possibility, as every good Redneck knows.

Yawl boys do know how to tie'm, dontcha?

[barnaclebill]

My dear Mr. Barnaclebill:

This distinguished body of highly educated, experienced, and dignified gentlemen at Cast Bullets is shocked by your use of what can only be correctly called, redneck slang. I am sure sir, I speak for many of the brotherhood here, when I say that I am aghast that you would use such language in our presence assuming as you obviously do, that we would understand a word of it.

We most certainly do not. If you intend to stay in our company sir, you will endeavor to make amends for your past actions, and in the future be particularly attentive to what you say and how you say it. We have already been traumatized and shaken by your brazen language, and we vigorously and emphatically denounce your caviler attitude towards members of this assemblage as evidenced by your presumption that we would comprehend such wretched vernacular.

Strict instructions have been issued to me by the secretary of this group to immediately place you on double secret probation, and to demand that you pay double dues during the probationary period of one year. Please forward your dues to me forthwith and without delay.

Your humble servant,

Mr. Black Prince

PS:

Ditto what 405 said.

I sincerely offer my humblest APOLOGY if I offended anyone in the group. I honestly felt that none of you would understand a word of what I said but just in case there was a stranger in the mists that happened to read my post I wanted to cover all my bases on gathering information.I feel absolutely shaken to the bone for being on double secret probation and I promise that in the future I will behave myself. please inform me where to send my dues for the next year. You have all been very helpful and did not deserve my tasteless joking around about Rednecks as I have learned the hard way that you are nothing less than pure gentlemen. Actually my New best friends in Florida are self acclaimed Rednecks and I strive to be as friendly as they are. They would truly be mortified by my crude actions that I have apparently sunken to. Please Forgive me.
Barnacle Bill

[Black Prince]

Hee, hee. You gonna fit in gud here hoss. Dang shore are. In fact, I moan put tha seal of approval on ya rat now. Heah it is: OFFICAL SEAL OF APPROVAL

[barnaclebill]

BB,
Looking at your numbers after you slugged those bores- need to make sure we are on same page and talking about the same measurements. Can make a huge difference when seeking best bullet diameter for bore dimensions.

Example:
Bore diameter (strict definition in our context)- the inside diameter of the rifle barrel as it was bored prior to rifling grooves being cut.

Groove diameter- the inside diameter of the of the rifle barrel between bottoms of opposing rifling grooves.

Lands- the raised portions in a rifle bore that are the remnants of the original bore surface that was not cut when the grooves were added. (could call land diameter the same as bore diameter in our context)

OK....When that slug pops out after driving thru it should have more or less the reverse imprint of the inside cross section dimensions of the bore. The widest diameters as measured on the slug would be the barrel groove diameter (opposing bottoms of the grooves)

Just looking at your +/- .451-2 that you are calling "groove in bore".... that mearuement seems closer to standard bore diameter in most 45 cal rifles. A .451-2 bore diameter usually means about .458-9 groove diameter.

Re-check your numbers and definitions.

Best bullet example: if the bore diameter on your 45-120 is about .451 and the groove diameter is somewhere around .458 you'll want to start trying bullets sized to about .458 then work up to about .460.

Since old guns can have wide variations of dimensions it's possible your groove diameter numbers are correct.... just making sure!!! might save a lot of headaches and poor shooting.

mt charlie,
Sorry, you beat me to the same idea! Hope this doesn't p on your hydrant

barnacle B
Yes, slugging a bore is very easy. Always surprised that some avoid it.
Yes, paper patching bullets has been around awhile- at least the early 1870s or before. You don't think Matthew Quigley would be out-of-period do you

Also added, a simplified drawing showing the "deal" about bores, slugs, etc.

Usually the best diameter bullet to start with is barrel groove diameter.

The numbers that I measured of the slug were the groove diameters. not the bore diameter. measured from high point to opposite high point but got slightly different measurements when I measured the other groove diameter. How do you accomodate the different measurements?

[Black Prince]

Use the measurement that is the larger of them to start with. Try it and see how it works for accuracy and any tendency to lead the bore. ( Assuming proper bullet alloy and lube.) Recover bullets and examine them for fit. Look at the land and groove engraving on the bullet. Are they completely filled out? Is there any evidence of slipping? Is there excessive lead behind the bullet (on the bullet base) at each land where it displaced bullet metal?

Those things will give you an idea of whether or not the bullet fits your barrel. A potential problem I see in what you have said here is that the normal cast diameter of bullets designed for .45 caliber rifles are larger than the measuremnents you have given here. If you size those bullets down to say .453 or .454 or there abouts, you are going to be sizing them a lot. In my experience, that does not do anything good for accuracy. You may have to pop for a custom mould, but that is no biggie because if you are going to do good shooting, you need a good mould anyway and Lyman does not make them.

Of course, you may size those suckers down 6 or 7 thousands and they still shoot good. There is always the exception.

This is all a part of loading and shooting these rifles. Almost everyone goes through some of this in one way or another working up accurate loads. Don't be discouraged. If it was easy, everybody could do it. Just go through the process until you get a good load.

As 405 has correctly said, it's all about bullet /barrel fit and then finding out what velocity your rifle likes for that bullet, or IF it likes that bullet at all, and make up a load to drive the bullet at that speed. Then you can experiment with bullet alloy, powders, primers, wads, lubes, seating depth, compression ratios, enlarging flash holes, crimps and so on, but that is the fun part of all of this.

BTW, got any idea of the barrel twist rate on those rifles?

[MT Gianni]

Waksupi, Never use grandiose words when diminutive ones suffice.

[405]

barnacle,
Agree with Black Prince! use the larger measurement.

For perspective- jacketed bullets have about 100 BHN (hardness index) skins. Bullets like Barnes X (var) are about 100 BHN thru and thru. If you study the diameters of jacketed bullets in relation to the bore and groove diameters of the barrels they're shot in- you'll notice it's quite common for them to be under groove diameter by .001 and in some cases not too much over bore diameter. Yet because of their hardness and toughness compared to cast bullets they are almost always much, much easier to get to shoot accurately at high pressure and at high velocity and don't suffer from the same fragility flaws that can plague cast bullets. Guess that's why so much of this forum is dedicated to the finer points of shapes, weights, lubes, dimensions, alloys, powders, wads, cases, chambers, throats, bores, etc. with cast bullets. Usually a string of difficult objectives in search of an impossible goal

Most BP bullets have a BHN of between about 5 (pure lead) and maybe 10 (20:1 alloy). Soft alloy cast bullets used for most BP shooting are so plastic in nature there is little problem with forcing them into tight holes.... as long as it is within reason.... usually up to about .002 oversize... more than that seems to gain diminishing returns, but exceptions do exist

I've found (at least satisfied in my mind) that BP does tend to obturate slightly undersize bullets to fill the space available but it is almost always better to size them to fill the hole or even over-fill the hole slightly first, in a controlled manner, than to rely on the sometimes upredictable nature of obturation..... undersized bullets can obturate slightly crooked (off axis) resulting in inaccuracy. Or, an undersized bullet can obturate a tad late resulting in gas blow-by, leading, excess fouling and inaccuracy.

[barnaclebill]

Use the measurement that is the larger of them to start with. T A potential problem I see in what you have said here is that the normal cast diameter of bullets designed for .45 caliber rifles are larger than the measuremnents you have given here. If you size those bullets down to say .453 or .454 or there abouts, you are going to be sizing them a lot.





BTW, got any idea of the barrel twist rate on those rifles?

I am going to re-slug the bores to insure that my previous test was valid.

I will check the twist rate today.

Darn it , when you guys indicated I was in the right Forum you were right. I really never realized that there were so many variables and idiosyncrasy's in the construction and dynamics of a simple bullet. I am an Engineer and appreciate the depth and detail of information you all are giving. It is greatly appreciated. The 45-120 is so dad gum heavy [16 pounds ] . No offhand shooting with that sucker. I think most of my shooting will be with my Sharps 50-90 or 45-70. Lots of dies to buy.
BB

[Black Prince]

NOW we are making music! We are on the same sheet and in the same measure. You are on the right track Bbill. All you have to do is get in the same key, on the same note and timing, and we'll be Nashville bound! Uhhhh, I mean headed for the shooting range.