Loading black?

[RMulhern]

barnaclebill

Here's the chart:

[barnaclebill]

Thanks for posting my bullet chart....Someday I am sure I would have figured it out . I was reading one of the new books that were recommended " Shooting Buffalo rifles of the old West" or something like that, and it said that Sharps NEVER made a 45-110, Maybe so but I have a 45-110 Original Sharps that was CONVERTED by Sharps. 16 pounds. Also the chart does list a 45-110 Cartridge. So ???? Always a little confusion thrown in.

Finally I got lead pot and molds and wheel weights and gave it a first try. Everything went pretty fair but I think I melted some Zinc weights as I just discovered in the forum, they floated and did not melt right away. Only a couple of them tho. After casting a couple dozen of each I found that as they were getting better without wrinkles they were a bit frosted in color and I presume that maybe this is caused by a too hot lead temp. Am I correct here? Next time I will use it cooler. Maybe I need a thermometer. After casting my chambers in my Sharps 50-90s I Discovered they were both 50-70. As for the 45-110 I was correct on that one--But alas, that is what is stamped on the barrel. Now I just have to cast the 44-?? At least they stamped .44 on the barrel. Thanks again to all for the help and I will now just get back to casting. I also just found an old mold I have had for 50 years of 3 lead WW1 soldiers that I can cast.

[405]

bbill,
Good to see you're still plugging away!

Yep, that "powder in case" naming versus the "case length" thing is always confusing. Throw in the Winchester and other BP straightwalls of the era and yikes!

I think the 45 2 7/8.... could be 100 (gr powder), 110 or 120 depending on the amount of powder and length and seating depth of the bullet. Same for the 45 3 1/4 could be from about 100 thru 125. Throw in the 45 2 3/4 and it could be either 100 or 110! An overlap kinda thing. For those who reloaded..... the 2 7/8 could be say 45-107.5. When I load my 45-110 to be exact I'd have to say the cartridge is 45-84 with the 520 PP bullet and the wad column. So long as the case fits the chamber correctly no big deal.

Yep the frosting on the bullets is usually high heat. Some like a little frosting some like chrome shiney. I like completely filled out mold and sharp edges which ever way they look. Also, might check the BHN of the extra zinc batch to see what it turned out. If the BHN is maybe 10 or less you're probably OK for the Sharps bullets. If it's too hard who knows? and may depend on how well they fit the groove diameter, etc. Some of how well they work depends on if smokeless or BP and the type of lube and so on. All sounds like progress!

[RMulhern]

BB

Sharps did make a .45/110 and for several years there were thousands upon thousands of rounds of .45/110 shipped to Wyoming for the Buff hunters! Kenny Wasserberger has much info on this caliber as he is a friend of this caliber and he has much historical data on where/who received the shipments of ammo from Sharps Company! Sharps DID NOT MAKE a .45/120 as a commercial caliber which isn't to say that someone....a rifle crank somewhere.....didn't have a reamer to bore out the .45/110 a little farther to the .45/120! I've had occasion to test a .45/120 a few years back but not long enough to give it a real wringing out! Preliminary testing made me think that I could get it to perform real well but I never got that chance! Recoil was not bad I must state with a hefty charge of 1F Goex!

Yes...you need a temp guage and my experience has been when casting all-lead bullets that a working temp of around 750F makes for some good bullets! Having the mould HOT ENOUGH in the beginning makes for good bullets right from the 'get-go'! I put my mould into the open flame of a stovetop for around 3 minutes and then I start casting and the bullets are good after about two being cast! Also....JUNK LEAD is a 'no no'! Too much zinc or antimony might cause you a problem! For several years now I go with a known quantity of alloy; either 1-16 tin/lead or 1-20 which works well for me! If the temp is TOO HOT yes....it will give frosted bullets...with the alloy or TRASH that one may be using! In the final analysis.....it is best to work with an alloy that you know is true.....rather than saving a few pennies and then winding up with junk bullets!

[barnaclebill]

More Great Info. Thanks

I got part of my problem solved... I kept getting bullets that were looking a little wrinkley but after about 200 bullets at all different temperatures I finally noticed that the bad area was always in the same mold {2 cavity mold] The other bullet always had a stripe down the side. I then looked at the mold with a powerful magnifying glass and sure enough the imperfections were in the mold [I guess I can't expect too much from a $20 Lee mold,] I polished the mold with a little fine Scotchbright pad and now it throws great looking bullets at 650 degrees using a lee 20# bottom pour pot. They fall out of the mold very easy now as there were also small burrs on the edges.I have a pile now of a couple hundred bullets to put back into the pot and have more fun. Now on to the next steps of getting the bullets on the ends of a few pieces of brass without blowing myself up. One small step for Bill. looking forward to shooting these things.

Thanks Again
BB

[barnaclebill]

I just sized my first bullets and referred to the books with no luck.

Here are the numbers

Lee casting . die 459"

Cast Bullets measure .460-.462"

Sized bullets to .454" with Lee sizer using the supplied Liquid Alox.

After sizing the bullets are .454" but there is a ring of lead on the base of the bullet. I presume that some of this is normal since the excess lead has to go somewhere.

Some bullets were much harder to size than others and of course left more lead ring on the base.

What is the normal procedure for removing this thin ring of lead? I used a razor blade on some of them which worked fairly well but sort of crude . I presume we want to keep the base of the bullet as smooth and square as possible. Is there a special or homemade tool for this?

Am I trying to size too much? [ up to .007" ]Since I am just starting this adventure of casting bullets I prefer not to have custom molds made at first.

It is interesting that the Instructions with the Lee Bullet Lubricating and Sizing Kit say to lube the bullets and let dry overnight then size them and relube the sized portion. Also the instructions say "Traditional bullet lubricating methods of placing lube only in the grooves are inferior to the modern method of coating the entire bullet with Lee Liquid Alox."

This leads me to a final question as to when to do pan lubing as I have planned to do before sizing or after sizing assuming that the bullets still have Alox on them and the decision as to whether or not to remove the Alox before pan lubing.

These bullets are for my 45-120 Sharps original rifle.

Thanks BB

[Jon K]

Bill,

Did you slug your barrel?
Sounds like you have a .454 die, not a .459. .454 should be way too small for your Sharps.

I would slug the barrel first , then order the appropriate size die(.001-.002 over), or shoot as cast, if it will chamber.

Pan lube should carry enough lube for you to size, if you're only sizing .001-.002.

Jon

[barnaclebill]

Bill,

Did you slug your barrel?
Sounds like you have a .454 die, not a .459. .454 should be way too small for your Sharps.

I would slug the barrel first , then order the appropriate size die(.001-.002 over), or shoot as cast, if it will chamber.

Pan lube should carry enough lube for you to size, if you're only sizing .001-.002.

Jon

Back on page 5 of this thread I was having all sorts of problems and dimension changes to my bore but this is the latest. I think I missed one step in the process that had been previously recommended and that was to open my sizing die to .456 . Dumb me. I am using WW for the lead. I am going to switch to my .50-70 Sharps as I think I have the proper dies and sizer for this one and get back to the 45-120 Sharps later. I just want to start shooting one of these babies.

I previously did a slug of my 45-120 with the 5 grooves and measured it again and mysteriously this time when I rotate the slug in the calipers the max dimension is .456"...a couple days ago I received my Cerrosafe metal and took a cast of the chamber including 1 1/2" of the bore. Measuring with the same technique I get .455". If I measure the diameter at the very end of the freebore just before the start of the rifling I measure .468"...BIG difference. very hard to measure accurately the bore with 5 grooves.

[Jon K]

Bill,

Measuring w/5 grooves is difficult, as you wll not get a good reading trying to measure directly over the slug, because of the odd # of grooves. Take a piece of thin shim stock, wrap it around the slug, measure and minus 2x the shim thickness is your groove diameter. It may not be an exact measurement, but close enough to figure, how much larger you want to size the boolit.

After get that info, measure your chamber size and see if the chamber will accept the boolit + brass + clearance.

Jon

[barnaclebill]

Bill,

Measuring w/5 grooves is difficult, as you wll not get a good reading trying to measure directly over the slug, because of the odd # of grooves. Take a piece of thin shim stock, wrap it around the slug, measure and minus 2x the shim thickness is your groove diameter. It may not be an exact measurement, but close enough to figure, how much larger you want to size the boolit.

After get that info, measure your chamber size and see if the chamber will accept the boolit + brass + clearance.

Jon

That is exactly how I got the final measurements with the wonderful advice from others in the thread. I have even assembled a sized bullet with brass [ no powder or primer ] and loaded, aka pushed it, into the rifle and let the rifling slide the bullet into the brass, ejected the assembly and got a starting measurement for the total length. I presume that I must now get my sizer right and then try again to get my total length. I still have the casting and my slug so I can recheck my numbers. BB

[barnaclebill]

bbill,
Good to see you're still plugging away!

Yep, that "powder in case" naming versus the "case length" thing is always confusing. Throw in the Winchester and other BP straightwalls of the era and yikes!

I think the 45 2 7/8.... could be 100 (gr powder), 110 or 120 depending on the amount of powder and length and seating depth of the bullet. Same for the 45 3 1/4 could be from about 100 thru 125. Throw in the 45 2 3/4 and it could be either 100 or 110! An overlap kinda thing. For those who reloaded..... the 2 7/8 could be say 45-107.5. When I load my 45-110 to be exact I'd have to say the cartridge is 45-84 with the 520 PP bullet and the wad column. So long as the case fits the chamber correctly no big deal.

Yep the frosting on the bullets is usually high heat. Some like a little frosting some like chrome shiney. I like completely filled out mold and sharp edges which ever way they look. Also, might check the BHN of the extra zinc batch to see what it turned out. If the BHN is maybe 10 or less you're probably OK for the Sharps bullets. If it's too hard who knows? and may depend on how well they fit the groove diameter, etc. Some of how well they work depends on if smokeless or BP and the type of lube and so on. All sounds like progress!

Finally got my first Cartridges loaded and ready to test them out. Everything went pretty smoothly but a couple things are a bit confusing.
First of all
I sized all the bullets with the same sizer.
I sized and expanded all my cases at the same time with the same tools.

BUT ! some of the bullets do not fit the brass and if I pick and choose the bullets I can find one that fits. Something seemed not to size correctly.

Next on loading powder.

A 50-70 is supposed to hold approx. 70 grains. I am weighing my powder in grams [Select Hodgdon Pyrodex-RS- FFG Equivalent as I cannot locate any Black Powder locally ] and I can only load 3 grams[46.3 grains] Maybe grains and grams are somehow different for powder. I am filling to about 3/16" below the mouth of the bass and seating the bullet 1/4" so I have a compression of about 1/16". Nothing between the lead and powder on this batch. Unless my calculations are faulty I cannot explain why my loads appear so small but I am sure you have a good idea.
Thanks BB

[calaloo]

Th same volume of black powder and Pyrodex weigh differently. Pyrodex is lighter.

Bill

[barnaclebill]

Th same volume of black powder and Pyrodex weigh differently. Pyrodex is lighter.

Bill

Thanks, The other thin I learned through reading last night is that there are grains by weight and also grains by volume.
I guess I should have known that since I knew that there are liquid ounces and volume ounces. Whoever came up with this system? My Lee Pro powder measure is on the way.

[Mike Venturino]

In SHOOTING BUFFALO RIFLES it DOES NOT say that Sharps never made .45-110s. I know because I wrote it. It says the Sharps Rifle Company never called them by that name, instead going by the case length of 2 7/8 inches.

In fact they never labeled any of their rifles by the dual set of digits we're so familiar with today such as .45-70, .45-90, .40-90, and .45-110.

The ammo companies of that era loaded the .45-2 7/8" with 90 to 120 grains of powder and bullets as light as about 290 grains and heavy as 550 grains.

The Sharps Rifle Company never chambered for the .45-3 1/4" cases or the .50-3 1/4" cases. That is except for one Model 1878 "Borchardt" made especially for an ammunition company as a test vehicle.

Read more slowly and you will get more comprehension from what you read.

MLV

[405]

Yes,
MLV's books "Buffalo Rifles" and "Lever Guns" deserve a place in every Guns/Shooting/Reloading library.

[barnaclebill]

In SHOOTING BUFFALO RIFLES it DOES NOT say that Sharps never made .45-110s. I know because I wrote it. It says the Sharps Rifle Company never called them by that name, instead going by the case length of 2 7/8 inches.

In fact they never labeled any of their rifles by the dual set of digits we're so familiar with today such as .45-70, .45-90, .40-90, and .45-110.

The ammo companies of that era loaded the .45-2 7/8" with 90 to 120 grains of powder and bullets as light as about 290 grains and heavy as 550 grains.

The Sharps Rifle Company never chambered for the .45-3 1/4" cases or the .50-3 1/4" cases. That is except for one Model 1878 "Borchardt" made especially for an ammunition company as a test vehicle.

Read more slowly and you will get more comprehension from what you read.

MLV

I may be a bit mistaken but no need to get insulting. Sometimes the way a sentence is written can be mis-interpreted when reading. First of all I made a mistake and referred to the wrong caliber. I meant to say 45-120 which is the 16# rifle I have and it is clearly marked 45-120. The rifle is a conversion done by the Sharps Factory. One of my Sharps only says [caliber .44]. My "Old Reliable" which is a Model 1874 Sporting Rifle has no markings as to size at all. This rifle is pretty cool as it is in new condition and was owned by the Sharps Factory and shot by Charles Overbaugh in 1876 , [ He designed the German pattern Model 1874 Sharps as well as the Model 1877 in the competitions with other manufactures The gun then went to Creedmore, The Target Range on Long Island, NY. The two Carbine 50-70s do not have any markings at all and are both Sharp Factory Conversions.
I am just rambling but it sort of fits in th conversation.
Never fear---I am still going to buy your Lever Action Book as I throughly enjoy reading " Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West".

Sorry for the misunderstanding..as I passed 65 it just gets better as I can get more Lever Actions and Sharps-------Which are lever actions---Right?

PS: How is a Borchardt Rifle Identified?

BB

[montana_charlie]

Thanks, The other thin I learned through reading last night is that there are grains by weight and also grains by volume.
I guess I should have known that since I knew that there are liquid ounces and volume ounces. Whoever came up with this system? My Lee Pro powder measure is on the way.

Back when the amount of powder used (by a shooter) was determined by pouring it into a measure with a known volume, it was necessary to have some 'standard' that could be used universally. Water (unlike gunpowder) weighs the same, no matter where on the Earth you are. So, a measure that holds 70 (weighed) grains of water will have exactly the same volume as another one made in a different country.

70 (weighed) grains of water uses less volume than 70 (weighed) grains of any kind of powder. So, if you scoop out enough powder to center a scale at 70 grains...you will have substantially more powder that would be thrown by a 'volumetric measure' marked in (water) grains.

In other words, you would overcharge the piece!

Make note of that when using Pyrodex. It is intended to be measured volumetrically, using a black powder measure...and they (in keeping with tradition) are all marked in 'water grains'.
CM

[Mike Venturino]

Bill: I didn't say that to be insulting. I meant it as sage advice because as a writer one thing I often run into is that people "scan" what they're reading and don't get it right. I wouldn't have responded at all if you had written .45-120 instead of .45-110, so let's just forget it.

As for your Sharps conversion, the factory likely didn't stamp it .45-120. In the hundreds of original Sharps I've inspected and the better than 200 Sharps company factory letters I've read, I've never seen them refer to a rifle by the caliber and powder charge. Perhaps it was done at a later date?

By the way, that Sharps on the cover of my Buffalo Rifles book is a factory .45-70 conversion.

Mike V.

[barnaclebill]

IT SHOOTS IT SHOOTS !!!!

I finally got it mostly all together sans grease cookie and took my new Sharps 50-70 reloads out for a trial run with my Sharps Carbine......1st offhand shot at 100 yards with iron sights blew up a 1 gallon milk carton of water. I use precise targets as you see. As for the 1 quart milk carton I blew up the stump it was sitting on and by the 10th shot my shoulder was giving out and the 11th shot fizzled as I forgot to load powder in it. The bullet went a little bit up the barrel but was easily ram rodded out at home with a wooden dowel. I was happy as a clam and they are all reloaded for the next adventure. This is just way too much fun ! I am now working on reloading for the 1886 45-70 Winchesters . one with an almost smooth bore. I love these lever actions.

I just wanted to thank all of you for all the assistance you gave me in this venture. All the advice was greatly appreciated and please forgive me for lot of dumb questions I may have asked BB