Loading black?

[badgeredd]

Since some of the forum members have suggested I try Holy Black in my 40-65. I figured, why not? But then my ignorance of how it should be done popped up. First I don't have a BP powder measure. Second, is 65 grains weighed or volume measure. Third, there isn't any money available at the moment but I really want to load some cartridges so how can I do it with what I have? I realize that a lot of shells should use a drop tube; do I need one? HELP me, PLEASE !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks guys !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[405]

In many ways BP cartridge is more straight forward than loading smokeless. Just don't allow any air space between powder and bullet base. About 1/10" compression of powder by bullet as it is seated is a good place to start. Load and shoot.... simple enough

Now--- fine tuning, accuracy, cleaning and the like are other issues.

[Razor]

Until the real experts pop in.....
Go by VOLUME...
I loaded some .303 Brit with BP... a kick in the pants...!
I was in kinda the same boat as you..
What one fella said was...
dump some 2f in a big bowl...
drag the case thru it 'til it's FULL...
hold in one hand and tap the case with the other hand to settle the powder some..'bout a quarter inch... (SAME EFFECT AS A DROP TUBE ??)
seat the boolit...
shoot...
Jus' that simple...
You want SOME powder compression...
NO air space between powder and boolit..
HTH

Razor

[e15cap]

Black Powder is weighed by everyone I know. Lots of people are using Lyman 55 for black.
A drop tube is nothing more than a suitable size copper tube with a funnel on the top. Make wads with a punch and hammer out of tablet paper or milk carton. A blow tube is a cartridge case drilled and tapped for a pipe nipple with some plastic tubing stuck on it. No rocket science here, just geterdone. Roger

[badgeredd]

Okay guys, one more question. Should I use 3f or 2f in the 40-65? or even maybe a duplex? I want to have a repeatable load so if I fill a case and then weigh it, would that be a better way? Guess that is more than "one more question", sorry (well not really) just a bit ignorant about this BP thing!

Do I "need" a wad? or is it just better to use it and if so why?

[Wayne Smith]

In the 40's you can uyse either 2 or 3F - my 40-70-BN shoots better with the 3F but try both. A wad protects the base of the boolit, you can cut a wad from a coffee can lid or the lid of a Chinese food container. Likewise an acceptable wad can be cut from an Orange Juice box. Buffalo Arms sells the appropriate wad punch and they sell a press mounted punch.

Yes, you should use a wad. You need some way to compress your load, shaking, a drop tube that can be made with on old arrow body and a plastic funnel, or holding the case on an electric razor for the vibration. I made a ram to mount in my arbor press out of Corian - turned it on my wood lathe. Bufalo Arms also sells a compression die you mount on your press. This gives you a relatively standard amount of compression.

Old information is that Goex likes compression and Swiss BP doesn't.

[Don McDowell]

Black powder charges are in grains. Never knew of any scale that would register volumes.

Anway I've had good accuracy from the 40-65 here with 60 grs of Goex Cartridge, a.030 fiber wad and about any cast bullet between 3 and 400 grs.
It really gets deadly accurate with 60 grs Goex 3f express ,.030 fiber wad and the Lyman Snover cast from #2 alloy and lubed with Sagebrush alox.

[xtimberman]

Make yourself an inexpensive drop tube using an old aluminum arrow shaft (Easton 2314, 2514, etc.) and a small aluminum funnel attached with JB Weld on top.

Use a C-clamp to hold a strong clothespin onto the front of your bench. The clothespin will hold the tube at your preferred height when pouring BP into the funnel.

xtm

[wonderwolf]

Make yourself an inexpensive drop tube using an old aluminum arrow shaft (Easton 2314, 2514, etc.) and a small aluminum funnel attached with JB Weld on top.

Use a C-clamp to hold a strong clothespin onto the front of your bench. The clothespin will hold the tube at your preferred height when pouring BP into the funnel.

xtm

I really like that idea, whats the ID of the shaft? thats being resourceful there esp if you go out hunting downrange where archers shoot with a metal dectector might find several for free lol

badgeredd you might want to look into getting some publications for referance such as paul mathews books. IMHO I would stay away from duplex until you've gotten the all black powder thing down.

[carpetman]

Wonderwolf---"What's the ID of an arrow shaft"? Arrows come in different diameters---they match up pounds of pull and draw length and determine what size(stifness) is needed.

[August]

Arrows are splined for stiffness, they are all the same diameter.

[carpetman]

August--You are partially correct--arrows are splined for stifness. That is true. Now how do they vary that stiffness? Arrow material is one way----carbons for example are skinnier than aluminum. But here we were talking aluminum, so to get the different stiffnesses the wall thickness and overall diameter comes in different sizes---either of these two would vary the ID which is the subject. BTW wooden arrows are solid so you cant use them for a drop tube. Well ok,you could if you hollow it out.

[xtimberman]

I really like that idea, whats the ID of the shaft? thats being resourceful there esp if you go out hunting downrange where archers shoot with a metal dectector might find several for free lol

All arrow shafts are NOT the same diameter.

You can figure ID of an Easton aluminum arrow shaft by looking at the size designation. The first two numbers designate the OD in /64ths of an inch. The second two numbers designate the wall thickness in .000".

For instance, a 2114 aluminum arrow shaft has a nominal OD of 21/64", and a wall thickness of .014". The ID would be 21/64" minus .028".

BTW, stiffness of an arrow is referred to as spine not spline.

xtm

[carpetman]

xtimberman---Thanks for posting that info about the numbers on Easton Arrows---I knew it at one time and could not remember exactly. I knew the spine too,but had forgotten that---some reason spline seemed ok to me.

[badgeredd]

badgeredd you might want to look into getting some publications for referance such as paul mathews books. IMHO I would stay away from duplex until you've gotten the all black powder thing down.

A duplex load is a load of 2 different powders with different burn rates. If one used 3f in the bottom of the case, say 10 grains, and finished off the load with 2f, one would have a duplex load.

I decided to load 3 shells each with 2f and 3f to see which seemed to give me the best initial accuracy and then work with the best one first. I know my 45 muzzle loader shoots really well with a load of 25 grains of 3f and 60 grains of 2f duplexed. Of course that is using round balls too.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and ideas, love the arrow shaft idea!

[steif]

Hi,
I made my cheap drop tube with a trip to the hardware store... Just look for a water pipe like is used for a toilet or sink supply, they are usually nickel plated copper with a " head" or compression fitting head on the end. I put that end in the down position and found a old aluminum small funnel we had in the kitchen for the top, and mounted the whole thing on a scrap piece of board. the cone shaped head area fits different sizes of cases like a charm. If I remember right it was under $10 for everything including some plastic cable clamps to hold the tube on the board... works real well and the added bonus since it's nickel plated it looks real snazzy on the wall next to my bench...lol...
Good luck!

[Black Prince]

A duplex load is a load of 2 different powders with different burn rates. If one used 3f in the bottom of the case, say 10 grains, and finished off the load with 2f, one would have a duplex load.

And if one used between 10 and 15 PERCENT of a smokeless powder such as 4227 or RX7, and finished the rest off with 1.5, 2 or 3 FFG, an over powder wad of say .060, and then seated the bullet, you would have a duplex load that will burn the BP charge so clean, with or without compression, you can shoot 100 rounds without a blow tube or cleaning. For general use, it will be a great load without having to mess with a blow tube.

NRA will not allow duplexed loads in silloute matches , but will allow I believe up to 20% smokeless, in long range matches.

Let us know how you come out. BP is fun to shoot and it can also be very accurate. It can make you pull your hair out too, so don't get discouraged trying it. I shoot a 40-65 using duplexed loads and it's a hoot, but it took a lot more effort to get it to shoot than smokeless loads.

A bit of unasked for advice: The quality of your bullets, especially their bases, will play a major role in whether you get good accuracy. A nose pour mould can be a very good investment here. Select them by visual and by WEIGHT inspection. Reject all with obvious surface pits or voids and any by weight that exceed one standard deviation from the mean either plus or minus. Flare the case mouth enough so that you do not damage the base when loading. Use a good over powder wad to protect the bullet base. Crimp only enough to remove the flare.

Good luck.

[barnaclebill]

Hi
Sharps Black Powder Cartridges
I may be in the wrong forum here but maybe someone could point me in the right direction...I want to do my own BP loading for my Sharps Rifles. 45-120 and 50-90 and 45-70 and trap door Springfield 45-70. All guns are original and I am having a bit of difficulty finding brass cartridges for them. I also have a total lack of reloading equipment as I have only fired Muzzle loaders in recent years. One reloading book on the way and lots of learning so I will not blow myself up. This forum looked real promising to start with and help is always appreciated.

[405]

Hi
Sharps Black Powder Cartridges
I may be in the wrong forum here but maybe someone could point me in the right direction...I want to do my own BP loading for my Sharps Rifles. 45-120 and 50-90 and 45-70 and trap door Springfield 45-70. All guns are original and I am having a bit of difficulty finding brass cartridges for them. I also have a total lack of reloading equipment as I have only fired Muzzle loaders in recent years. One reloading book on the way and lots of learning so I will not blow myself up. This forum looked real promising to start with and help is always appreciated.

bbill,
This is the right place.

The basics are: Die sets for the cartridges you have, get the sets that have the neck expanding die with them (Lyman M die or equivalent). Reloading press. Maybe a primer seater and case trimmer. Caliper measurement tool. Brass- poke around here and places like Midway, Graf, etc. online stores. The 45-70 is the easiest to come by. The others may get a little pricey!. Bullets and black powder of course. The bullets should be lubed with soft BP type lube. Probably some .030 or .060 card wads. Primers. Powder measure- actually you can get by with just a dipper because in loading BPCR you fill the case with powder to a level just above where your wad and/or bullet base will be when seated with a little compression of the powder column. That is about as basic as it gets

First slug the bores in your guns. Record those numbers in your load log book. At least the groove diameter should be recorded. You want bullets from groove diameter to about .002 larger than goove diameter.

Read, re-read and re-read the BPCR manual(s) you get. There are several out there. The more manuals, instruction books the better!

Fire away! Clean as carefully as you would a muzzleloader shooting blackpowder. To start you may want to swab between shots with soluble oil-water mix (moose milk) and jagged patch. That will help with accuracy until you can fine tune the loads. IF you do as so many do just starting out who go out and shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot!!! who don't clean the bore often and have used the oft recommended soft, plain base bullets especially if those bullets are undersized- all kinds of discouraging things can happen. Like rapid drop in accuracy after a few shots, frustration, very tough to clean lead deposits and so on.

After shooting, clean the brass with small bottle/test tube brush in hot soapy water and rinse then dry. Over time BP will also corrode brass. Clean and oil bore just like a muzzleloader (sans the hooked breech types).

As to "blowing yourself up" ??? Less likely with BP than smokeless I imagine. The rounds/gun types you mentioned were designed for BP. Smokeless in BP designed cartridges and guns is the part that gets tricky. A little too much or the wrong type of smokeless powder in the large volume BP cartridges is where the bad Kabooms come from.

Have fun

[Black Prince]

I am having a bit of difficulty finding brass cartridges for them. I also have a total lack of reloading equipment.

Bbill, double click on this http://www.buffaloarms.com/. It will take you to the place that has everything you need. Call them and they are VERY helpful. They know what they are doing. They can get you set-up and loading in no time.

Once you get everything all set-up at home, let us know and we'll help you from there. Since you have no equipment or loading stuff, there isn't much we can do now. Well, we could sit down and have a drink, but we don't have any Evan Williams. While we are waiting for your stuff to get here, send each of us a bottle of Evan and we'll discuss the fine art of bullspit while we wait. If you don't do that, some of these boys will get bored and go to sleep.

Oh an WELCOME. You gonna be fine here. These are good boys who know their stuff. Now quit messing around and send tha Evan.