Trail Boss in .44 Special Revolvers

[theperfessor]

Just thought I'd post some chronographed resulted of Traill Boss and traditional powders in .44 Spcl. Date: June 29, 2007 Temp: 80F

Gun:S & W M21/4" bbl/All are for 12 shots

Bullet: Lee 429-200-RF/208 gr as cast from AC WW.

Powder/charge: 2400/14.3 gr
High/Low/Avg: 1078/999/1035
ES: 79.97
SD: 26.07

Powder/charge: Unique/8.2 pr
High/Low/Avg: 1106/1024/1064
ES: 82.27
SD: 28.01

Powder/charge: Trail Boss/5.3 gr
High/Low/Avg: 784.8/826.5/803.2
ES: 41.7
SD: 14.62

Bullet:Lyman 429667/ 246 gr as cast from AC WW

Powder/charge: Trail Boss/5.3 gr
High/Low/Avg: 733.7/703/717
ES: 30.64
SD: 10.63

Gun: S & W 296/2" bbl/All are for 10 shots

Bullet: Lee 429-200-RF/208 gr as cast from AC WW.

Powder/charge: 2400/14.3 gr
High/Low/Avg: 936.9/767.8/894.6
ES: 169.1
SD:48.3

Powder/charge: Unique/8.2 gr
High/Low/Avg:986.9/940.1
ES: 46.84
SD: 14.79

Powder/charge: Trail Boss/5.3 gr
High/Low/Avg: 774.2/757.5/740.2
ES: 34.24
SD: 11.48

I also checked some carry ammo - 200 WW jacketed hollow points. What junk!
Powder/charge: Unknown
High/Low/Avg: 749.9/463.5/545
ES: 286.4
SD: 108.1

Conclusions:

For moderate velocity loads Trail Boss has a lower SD than the other two, but Unique is very close. Both work well in short and medium length barrels, so what velocity level do you want? 2400 shows a real drop in shorter barrels and takes more powder for the same velocity as Unique.

And the lot of WW HPs I wanted to use for carry purposes performed dismally. I bought a box of CorBons on the way home from the range. Glad I checked them before I depended on them!

How does this line up with the group's experience? Comments?

[405]

Yep, what I've seen with Trailboss would agree. I have no chrony data to campare but in low-medium charge loads in all the very high expansion ratio cartridges like: 45 ACP, 44-40, 38-40 and 38 SPL... Trailboss loads have equaled and most times exceeded accuracy of other powder loads including the powders you listed.

[Ghugly]

I need a drink. After burning up a pound of Trail Boss, a pound of Unique, most of a pound of Bullseye, half a pound of Universal and a pound of 2400 in a quest to get a 250gr 429421 to shoot in a 2 1/2" barrel, 13.5gr of 2400 out shoots them all. And it isn't even close. If I can ever get a Lee 429-200-RF (damned backorders) I get to start all over again.

Thank you for this. It looks like Trail Boss is a good place to start.

[gcf]

No chrony data, however my 4" S&W 624 / .44SPL performs very well w/ the following combinations:

Bull Shop / LBT 260WFN-PB (10 BHN)
Power Pistol 7.5 grains
WLP

Bull Shop / LBT 260WFN-PB (10 BHN)
Trail Boss 4.8 grains
Fed LP

Montana Bullet Works / LBT 240WFN-PB (15 BHN)
VV N-340 7.3 grains
WLP

Montana Bullet Works / LBT 240WFN-PB (15 BHN)
Trail Boss 4.8 grains
Fed LP

Montana Bullet Works / LBT 220WC-PB (15 BHN)
Trail Boss 5.5 grains
Fed LP

Had a tough time initially w/ the 220WC-PB, until I tried the Trail Boss. They shoot like a house on fire, w/ this powder!

The Power Pistol seems to work best w/ heavier bullets - in a big bore application, at least. Gets along real well, w/ the soft 260WFN-PB from Dan. Also worked very well in a 4" S&W 657 / .41 Mag, w/ Cast Perf 250WFN-GC bullets.

[Ghugly]

Just thought I'd post some chronographed resulted of Traill Boss and traditional powders in .44 Spcl. Date: June 29, 2007 Temp: 80F

Gun:S & W M21/4" bbl/All are for 12 shots

Bullet: Lee 429-200-RF/208 gr as cast from AC WW.

Powder/charge: 2400/14.3 gr
High/Low/Avg: 1078/999/1035
ES: 79.97
SD: 26.07

Powder/charge: Unique/8.2 pr
High/Low/Avg: 1106/1024/1064
ES: 82.27
SD: 28.01

Powder/charge: Trail Boss/5.3 gr
High/Low/Avg: 784.8/826.5/803.2
ES: 41.7
SD: 14.62

Bullet:Lyman 429667/ 246 gr as cast from AC WW

Powder/charge: Trail Boss/5.3 gr
High/Low/Avg: 733.7/703/717
ES: 30.64
SD: 10.63

Gun: S & W 296/2" bbl/All are for 10 shots

Bullet: Lee 429-200-RF/208 gr as cast from AC WW.

Powder/charge: 2400/14.3 gr
High/Low/Avg: 936.9/767.8/894.6
ES: 169.1
SD:48.3

Powder/charge: Unique/8.2 gr
High/Low/Avg:986.9/940.1
ES: 46.84
SD: 14.79

Powder/charge: Trail Boss/5.3 gr
High/Low/Avg: 774.2/757.5/740.2
ES: 34.24
SD: 11.48

I also checked some carry ammo - 200 WW jacketed hollow points. What junk!
Powder/charge: Unknown
High/Low/Avg: 749.9/463.5/545
ES: 286.4
SD: 108.1

Conclusions:

For moderate velocity loads Trail Boss has a lower SD than the other two, but Unique is very close. Both work well in short and medium length barrels, so what velocity level do you want? 2400 shows a real drop in shorter barrels and takes more powder for the same velocity as Unique.

And the lot of WW HPs I wanted to use for carry purposes performed dismally. I bought a box of CorBons on the way home from the range. Glad I checked them before I depended on them!

How does this line up with the group's experience? Comments?

OK. I finally picked up a Lee 429-200-RF. I tried all of the loads that you listed, and a few more, using water dropped WW with a good dose of tin sized to .430. Basically, I got a 6 to 8 inch pattern and a leaded barrel. So...........back to the lead pot. I cast a mess of them using the same alloy but air cooled and loaded as cast. All the same loads equaled perhaps a 5 to 7 inch pattern and no leading.

I guess I should be happy with the 250gr Keith load. It's a wrist cracker but, at 50ft or so it will produce one ragged hole. Not much fun slamming a 250gr slug at near 1000fps out of a 20oz revolver.

[gcf]

OK. I finally picked up a Lee 429-200-RF. I tried all of the loads that you listed, and a few more, using water dropped WW with a good dose of tin sized to .430. Basically, I got a 6 to 8 inch pattern and a leaded barrel. So...........back to the lead pot. I cast a mess of them using the same alloy but air cooled and loaded as cast. All the same loads equaled perhaps a 5 to 7 inch pattern and no leading.

I guess I should be happy with the 250gr Keith load. It's a wrist cracker but, at 50ft or so it will produce one ragged hole. Not much fun slamming a 250gr slug at near 1000fps out of a 20oz revolver.

Out of curiousity, what revolver are you using, & what size are the cylinder throats?

[theperfessor]

In my original test I did not shoot for accuracy, I was (a) testing my chrony, and (b) trying to come up with some loads at various velocity ranges. I have since shot the Trail Boss loads for accuracy in three guns - a S&W M21, a S&W M296, and a Rossi M720.

The Lee 429-200-RF bullets were sized in a .431 die which didn't completely size bullet-they are out of round by about .001 when dropped from mold.

Accuracy from M21 in SA mode (throats measure .430-.431) at 20 yds off bench is about 2-2.5 inches. With M296 (DA only), throats measure same, accuracy about 3-3.5 inches. Rossi has throats that measure .432 to .435, accuracy nonexistent (5+ inches single action).

Thinking of taking Rossi and honing out throats to be consistent .434-.435 and trying larger bullet diameter or making a nose pour mold w/hollow base to see if it helps.

Throat size/bullet diameter does make a difference!

[fecmech]

My Ruger SBH has large throats (.434) and I get very good results by "Beagleing" my moulds and sizing to .433 on both the Lyman 429421 and the Lee 214 swc. My best mild loads are 7.0/231 or 7.0/green dot which run around 900fps (7.5" bbl) and accuracy is less than 2" @ 25 yds.

[Ghugly]

Out of curiousity, what revolver are you using, & what size are the cylinder throats?

I'm loading for a pair of Charter2000 Bulldogs. The throats run .434 the bores are .430. The problem is that the guns have forcing cones that are smaller than the throats. A 429421 that has a proper, full diameter front driving band, sized to .430 will slam into the forcing cone, shave lead, and shoot about as bad as you'd think it would.

If you swing out the cylinder and try to start the boolit into the forcing cone, the front driving band won't even come close to entering. It's almost as bad as trying to push the boolit into the other end of the barrel.

Sizing the boolits to throat diameter seems like a dandy idea, if you have a forcing cone.

So far, the best I've been able to do is find some 429421 moulds that cast a boolit with a small front driving band. These will fit the front band into the forcing cone and through some sort of miracle that I haven't figured out yet, cause the rest of the boolit to follow without shaving lead. The darned things actually work. They just have to be driven so damned hard to stabilize that the guns aren't much fun to shoot. I would just like to find a light boolit that would work as well.

[Scrounger]

Why don't you have a gunsmith open up your forcing cone? Brownells or Midway may even have a do-it-yourself tool.

[gcf]

I'm loading for a pair of Charter2000 Bulldogs. The throats run .434 the bores are .430. The problem is that the guns have forcing cones that are smaller than the throats. A 429421 that has a proper, full diameter front driving band, sized to .430 will slam into the forcing cone, shave lead, and shoot about as bad as you'd think it would. ...


...So far, the best I've been able to do is find some 429421 moulds that cast a boolit with a small front driving band. These will fit the front band into the forcing cone and through some sort of miracle that I haven't figured out yet, cause the rest of the boolit to follow without shaving lead. The darned things actually work. They just have to be driven so damned hard to stabilize that the guns aren't much fun to shoot. I would just like to find a light boolit that would work as well.

Given the .004" difference, I'm not surprised about the leading. Maybe the reason that the 429421 (small diameter as well?) bullet works in your application, is that you are running it hard enough (higher pressure) to "bump up", & seal the throats.

My SW 624 has .4325 - .433" throats, & smaller diameter bullets do lead. I have found that with 15BHN, .432" sized, 220WC-PB & 240WFN-PB (both from LBT moulds), leading is minimal to the point that I can live with it - using Trailboss. Accurate & easy shootin'.

The big fix for me, was provided by Dan at The Bullshop. He sells me a 260WFN-PB / .434" / 10-12BHN bullet from a custom LBT mould. They work good sized to .433".

Your comment about the forcing cone size, has me wondering. Never measured mine. I know that many folks feel they get better results from re-cutting THE ANGLE of the forcing cone, but I never really heard a good explanation WHY.

Maybe a newly cut forcing cone, & some soft - but properly sized bullets, would do the trick. W/ this combo, you might even find that you could run a standard weight bullet SLOWER, & get the results you are looking for.

Just my $0.02....

[Ghugly]

Why don't you have a gunsmith open up your forcing cone? Brownells or Midway may even have a do-it-yourself tool.

I know that this is the correct answer. I haven't been able to find a revolver smith anywhere around this area that I can take them to. I could send them to someone, but the idea of paying the freight to send the guns to someone so they can look at them to tell me wether or not the forcing cones have enough meat to be enlarged irks me. I'm probably going to do it, I'm just stalling while I keep looking for a smith. It's hard for me to accept the fact that there just aren't any smiths to be found around here.

If anyone knows of a revolver smith, anywhere in the Bakersfield/Fresno area, please let me know.

[Swagerman]

Don't feel bad about not finding a good gunsmith in your local area, there's none around here in the northern Wisconsin area either.

May I recommend contacting Charter Arms, tell them frankly what your up against with your cylinder throats and forcing cone problem, maybe they can come up with some fix it solution...perhaps sending the gun back to them.

Not your fault it was made that way. Good luck on it.


I have a Taurus model 441 that has the .434 cylinder throats, and the barrel is .429 or .430 diameter. But the forcing cone is very adequate in its entry.

I'm swaging my bullets to .431 and .432 diameter, will soon be going to the gun range to try them out.

Jim

[Swagerman]

Don't feel bad about not finding a good gunsmith in your local area, there's none around here in the northern Wisconsin area either.

May I recommend contacting Charter Arms, tell them frankly what your up against with your cylinder throats and forcing cone problem, maybe they can come up with some fix it solution...perhaps sending the gun back to them.

Not your fault it was made that way. Good luck on it.


I have a Taurus model 441 that has the .434 cylinder throats, and the barrel is .429 or .430 diameter. But the forcing cone is very adequate in its entry.

I'm swaging my bullets to .431 and .432 diameter, will soon be going to the gun range to try them out.

Before winter hit us with the deep snow last year, I managed to shoot this gun one time with .430 bullets that kind of dirtied up the gun because of a lot of blow-by of burnt powder and lube soot. The powders that did that were Bullseye, and Unique, really filthy mess. Then tried some Trail Boss powder cartridges and the filth in the barrel just dissapeared...cleaned it up remarkably well.

Have yet to find the right bullet and Trail Boss load that will shoot accurately. Hoping to use a Lee 205 grain SWC HP, and an NEI 429235 mould that drops them 245 grains with lube and gas check on them.

Jim

[theperfessor]

swagerman -

Big throats/standard size barrel seems to be the norm on some guns. That's why I've been thinking about a hollow base bullet cast soft at about 850-900 fps for my Rossi. Might "beagle" out an extra 240 gr SC Lee mold to .434-.435 and run a 5/16 or 3/8 ball mill into the base to see if it helps.

[Swagerman]

I've used hollow basing in my bullet swaging operations to good effect in .45 Colt caliber. That was for an older 2nd model S&W revolver that had .455 barrel and something like .457 or .458 diameter cylinder throats. Very good results see picture.





Also have some HB loads made up for the Taurus .44 special model 441, that have yet to be tested. As well as a boat load of beagled and swaged bullets to .432 diameter.

I recomend taking it easy on your first casting or swaging of the hollow bases. Something like 1/8 to 1/4 inch is usually all that's needed. Too deep a HB may cause undue pressure stresses as the bullet skirt flares out on launching...but that also has to do with how much powder you use.

Let us know your results, I will try and comply as well.


Jim

[theperfessor]

swagerman-

Thanks for info on your .45. I had read many times about using hollow base bullets in guns with throat sizes bigger than bore sizes. I planned to work up gently with powder charges and base cavity sizes.

Would be interested in your results w/Taurus.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Before you go to any hard solutions, try feeding it Cream of Wheat. My thoughts are: Using a boolit that will shoot with your barrel, but undersized for your throats lets the gases blow the lube off your boolit before it gets in the barrel, hence leading. COW may be able to retard the gases enough to leave some lube on them for the ride down the barrel. There's a chance you might get past the leading issue and even find small enough groups to keep you happy. Besides, that little revolver is probably mostly a defensive gun, and a revolver spewing hot cereal at close range wouldn't be a bad thing, for you. I've shot paper targets from a couple of yards with COW loads and the cereal penetrated the paper. Looked like a .410 hit the target.

[Swagerman]

Perfesser, I'll be going to the range soon, I hope. But health and strength is not too good.

Will let you know my results.

SOASS, shooting paper with COW may be fun, but don't try it on people or animals.

Jim

[theperfessor]

Yeah, thanks for suggestion but I think I'll stay away from COW for the time being.