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Thread: max load psi for Pedersoli Sharps

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy duke76's Avatar
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    max load psi for Pedersoli Sharps

    Recently I aquired a Pedersoli Sharps and am about ready to start loading for it. I am pretty sure I am going to use ACC5744, probably around 25 grains with a postell bullet, My question is what PSI would be safe to load to? Are these considered old firearms and can only load to 18,000 psi or can they handle a little more with the newer heat treated barrels, I would never load them as hot as a ruger number 1 but maybe approach the loads for the Marlin 1895. Does anyone know what Pedersoli says their safe pressure limit is? Thanks Todd

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    Boolit Master JesterGrin_1's Avatar
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    25,000 Cup

  3. #3
    Boolit Master

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    cup vs psi

    I guess this is as good a place as any to open this up.... and it may be somewhere in the archives And not trying to hijack this thread at all. Any thoughts out there on these CUP to PSI conversion formulas so loaders can at least get in ballpark when comparing CUP generated data to PSI data? The one I've used and it seems to work OK is:

    PSI = (1.51586 X CUP) - 17902

    And if my algeebra is ciphered right...

    CUP = (PSI + 17902) X .65969
    Last edited by 405; 04-12-2008 at 12:09 AM.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master omgb's Avatar
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    Dick Trenk, Pedersoli USA, told me that it was 28,000 CUP for the Sharps. It will take more but the weak point is the large firing pin hole. Load them hotter and you will get back flow that will result in pierced primers and gas leakage back at your face. Not good at all.
    R J Talley
    Teacher/James Madison Fellow

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    One thing I do not understand and that is the desire to hot rod the 45-70. It can be done and I have done it myself but for everyday shooting and hunting the old original black powder velocities do just fine to drop just about any game animal in the US and Canada with the possible exception of stopping a brown bear who wants to eat you. The standard load is plenty potent for everything else. In fact I use light weight bullets for most of my shooting and plinking with this caliber and about 75 to 80 % are loaded with black powder or a black powder substitute. I killed an elk a couple years ago with a 400 gr flat pointed boolit and 65 gr of FFG black powder. The elk was about 80 yards away and running from me. I shot him in the butt and the slug came out the chest after penetrating end to end. What more can you ask for. One shot one dead elk.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master omgb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickSS View Post
    One thing I do not understand and that is the desire to hot rod the 45-70. It can be done and I have done it myself but for everyday shooting and hunting the old original black powder velocities do just fine to drop just about any game animal in the US and Canada with the possible exception of stopping a brown bear who wants to eat you. The standard load is plenty potent for everything else. In fact I use light weight bullets for most of my shooting and plinking with this caliber and about 75 to 80 % are loaded with black powder or a black powder substitute. I killed an elk a couple years ago with a 400 gr flat pointed boolit and 65 gr of FFG black powder. The elk was about 80 yards away and running from me. I shot him in the butt and the slug came out the chest after penetrating end to end. What more can you ask for. One shot one dead elk.
    I'm with you Nick. At this point in my life, I don't need the extra beating. The Pedersoli's have a 1/18 twist that favors heavy slugs. I use a 520 LBT LFN, 6 grains of RL7 and as much BP in 2F granulation as I can get in the case with a drop tube and about 1/8" compression. I put a .030 card wad over this and seat the bullet out to the lands. This gives me about 1200 fps, very little fouling and great accuracy.
    R J Talley
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  7. #7
    In Remembrance
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickSS View Post
    One thing I do not understand and that is the desire to hot rod the 45-70.
    I'm also with you, Nick, but...

    Duke76 wasn't really asking a 'hot rodding' question. He just wonders where the edges of the playing field are.

    While it's true that you can't get enough BP in a case to damage a BPCR rifle, there are always those who will load their ammo with smokeless.
    For them, it is reasonable to ask what pressure the guns are capable of handling.

    If they decide to push those limits, they get what they deserve...and so do the people around them who are goofy enough to hang out with people who think like that.

    CM
    Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

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    Boolit Buddy duke76's Avatar
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    Montana Charlie, you are exactly right, I have no intention of hot rodding, I just want to know where the edges of the playing field are, That is what I meant to say , I just didnt know how to say it. Thanks Todd

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    Boolit Master omgb's Avatar
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    Duke, the only reason I knew the answer was because it was one of the first questions I asked when I bought mine back in '02. The issue for me was margin of safety with smokeless loads. I used 5744 at the time.
    R J Talley
    Teacher/James Madison Fellow

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    Here is the complete write up about Pedersoli pressure from Dick Trenk:

    Pedersoli approves 29.000 psi loadings with BP or
    smokeless powders.

    This is correct and official for our Sharps, Trapdoor and Rolling
    Block models.

    All these guns are proof tested at about 33,000 to 35,000 psi using
    American Federal brand smokeless ammo , at the Italian national Proof
    House in Gardone Italy.

    Properly loaded with correct garde BP you will not exceed allowed
    safe limits but under certain conditions FFFg powder has been known
    to exceed the limits a bit.
    For the 45 and 50 caliber rifles FFFg has no safe usage.
    It burns too fast and makes faster MV speeds but accuracy is down the
    drain.

    The 45-70 and 45-90 work best with FFg, 1.5Fg grain sizes. The 45-110
    and 45-120 hold lots of powder and the 45-110 likes 1.5Fg while the
    45-120 really should only use Fg.


    John: The proper way to answer this question is at the proof house
    where transducers and oscilloscope pictures are used to view the
    entire pressure spike from the breach to about 3 inches into the
    barrel. Such a clear graphic picture reveals how the spike starts,
    where in the chamber it peaks and how it deminishes as it enters the
    rifling.

    The transducer set up offered by Ohler (and others?) is a single
    transducer which will measure surface expansion just at that exact
    location and might be missing a much higher pressure in front or in
    back of that location. Of course even this singel transducer is very
    valuable and not owned by many shooters. When moved around and used
    skillfully it is capable of giving an accurate chamber pressure
    report.


    Pedersoli officially approves chamber pressures up to 29,000 psi for
    use in our Sharps, Trapdoor and Rolling Block rifles.

    Such pressures are punishing with strong recoil even in a somewhat
    heavy gun like a Sharps or RB etc.

    Most bullets and loadings produce best long range accuracy when
    leaving the muzzle at 1225 to 1350 fps (depending on bullet, barrel
    twist etc.)Usually chamber pressures for such MV speeds will be in
    the range of 24,000 to 26,000 psi but that 29,000 limit is available
    if needed.

    The Sharps, Trapdoor and RB are very strong (replicas made with
    modern steels)so we are not much concerned with pressures produced by
    maximum BP loads which employ the correct grain size powder. These
    thin wall BP ctg cases are not too reliable once they sustain
    excessive pressures so the main concern lies not so much with the
    strength of the rifle but more with ruptured cases.


    .............................................
    And here is what Dick had to say about the steel that Pedersoli uses:

    From: dicktrenk1 (Original Message)
    Sent: 6/25/2006 12:52 PM
    This is a reply to comments seen in the post titled "Uberti and Peita".

    Ireload2: I agree with you about there being no excuse for using soft steel in replica guns. We have seen lots of reports about such problems over the years.
    Sometimes we read about US made guns having this same problem but I think we must be fair and say that such individual gun reports are the exception and they are very few compared to the number of guns sold by each maker.

    Pedersoli barrels are machined from a chrome moly alloy having the metalurgical composition called 30Cr Mo4 Uni 7845 which is a patented alloy variation developed by Mauser in the 1930s specially for their new M34 light machinegun which has such a rapid rate of fire. The alloy was designed to prevent or minimize the barrel from "walking" the bullets on the target as the barrel heated up. To my knowledge only Mauser, Sako, Mannlicher and Walther use this expensive alloy which Pedersoli buys.

    For our action frames ( and other parts such as breech blocks etc.) we use a special alloy which is best suited for the "forging" process we use on ALL our Sharps, Rolling Block, Trapdoor, Colt Lightning and forthcoming HiWall rifles.
    This alloy is identified as being 18Cr Mo4. This alloy alows what is called "cementation hardening." Which gives a hard wear resistant surface of proper depth, while maintaining a non-brittle softer internal molecular structure necessary on such parts which are subject to shock and high stress loadings repeatedly.
    This alloy also allows us to produce very colorful case hardened exterior surfaces so desired in fine guns. The alloy can also be finished in standard hot blue/black or "coin" color finishes.

    Smaller parts are made from equally suitable steel alloys and are properly heat treated by means of induction coil methods and oil or water quenched, according to the desired hardness and type of alloy being used.
    Only an idiot would buy and use a cheap soft alloy in critical gu parts ! Your reputation would soon be ruined and your guns considered to be cheap and short lived.
    Pedersoli knows we have this problem with some other replica makers.
    Mr. Pedersoli is in his 3rd term as President of the Consortium de Brescian Armie Mfr. (Brescia Region Arms Mfr. Association). This organization is constantly working to improve the quality of products supplied by both the arms makers as well as the dozens of small component suppliers who serve the industry in the Brescia Valley Tromph region where almost all the Italian gun industry is located.

    Seeing first hand, the dedication of the gunsmiths and machine operators and hand crafters working for generations at Pedersoli..... I have no hesitation saying their number one concern is quality and durability of the guns being produced.
    Family file cabinets have aging records showing orders for Matchlock guns which were being built in the late 1500s. Their first Wheelock actions were built in 1599-1602 period. Flintlock guns were being produced by Pedersoli ancestors in the same Brescia region by early in the 1620s period.
    The fast moving river running right through the Valley Tromph is fed by the higher waters of Lake Garda and Lake Como. This constant year round rush of water powered water wheels which turned the lathes and drill presses of the northern Italian industrial region. We see the same sort of history in the New England region of the US where good water power made manufacturing much easier before steam power was available.
    These old time Italian gun makers like Beretta (right next door to Pedersoli) have been making firearms before America was even explored and settled. They know quite a bit about the business and are 100% up to date as far a modern materials and methods are concerned. The workers are usually multi-generational skilled gun builders whose fathers and the fathers before them were doing the same type of work. The apprenticeship program in the Brescia region gives a priority to workers whose ancestors are or have worked in this business. It is tightly controlled and the quality is always high.
    Dick T
    Regards
    John

  11. #11
    Boolit Mold Palma-Match 308 190gr Win's Avatar
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    Hello altogether,

    That's a really interesting thread.. . One question is still left

    I could buy a Pedersoli Remington Rolling-Block-Rifle Replica in Caliber .45-70 Govt. around 2002. A good conditioned Single-Shot-Rifle. This very morning i detected an info in one of our gunshops here in which this type of rifle is offered as an occasion, too. In other words. So far - beside the rare rifle model - nothing special.. .

    But then, reading every information there, i saw an notice: until 1220 PSI. It seems to be exactly the same rifle as mine.. . I think they have been seriously. https://www.waffenboerse.ch/pedersol...get-45-71.html

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The explanations above from John Boy are highly informative - only my rifle must have been produced in the 1990's or even earlier, i don't know the concrete year.

    Only to be sure: did the Pedersoli-People start using this steel here above so well described already back in the " " or even earlier ? This 1220 PSI are quite irritating and don't fit well here.. .

    There is this special powerful factory-ammo from Hornady here available, too. The so-called 325 grs-FTX Leverevolution with a muzzle-velocity of 624 m/s in a 24 inch-barrel, in contrast to 570 m/s of the Remington or Winchester 300 grs-JHP-Loads. My Pedersoli Rolling Block has a 30-inch-barrel, so I expect still more velocity and pressure, of course.. .

    Click image for larger version. 

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    So that my gun could use this ammo-type safe as well.. . Or not... ?.

    BR
    Palma-Match .308 190 gr HPBT Win.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master omgb's Avatar
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    I have owned and used Pedersoli rifles since the late 1990s. I presently have a Sharps in 45-90. I wrote the factory 20 years ago about using smokeless loads in my Sharps. They told me that their actions are routinely safe to 32,000 PSI in the Sharps, 28,000 psi in the rolling blocks. Those Hornady loads you reference are loaded below 32k psi. I don’t know that I would use them in a rolling block.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    R J Talley
    Teacher/James Madison Fellow

  13. #13
    Boolit Mold Palma-Match 308 190gr Win's Avatar
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    Many thanks, omgb !!
    Palma-Match .308 190 gr HPBT Win.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master omgb's Avatar
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    Just remember, 1220 BAR not 1220 PSI
    R J Talley
    Teacher/James Madison Fellow

  15. #15
    Boolit Mold Palma-Match 308 190gr Win's Avatar
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    Yes. I mixed it up. I don't know the proofmark of this rifle or mine, till now.

    And I therefore will let check he proofmark on my Rolling-Block. By using the very next opportunity..

    Best regards
    Palma-Match .308 190 gr HPBT Win.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master omgb's Avatar
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    Think nothing of it brother. I make such mistakes myself from time to time. Do you know the difference between a sanitizing wipe and a diaper wipe? I do, boy howdy I do. There was a time when I didn't but I will always remember now.
    R J Talley
    Teacher/James Madison Fellow

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Trap door loads are safe.
    515gr FN in pure lead bullet with 27grs of 5744 under it, in my gun. Very accurate. Might want to start lower and work up ?
    A 500+ gr Lee 3R bullet in pure lead in my 45/70 rolling bock with 42grs of blackhorn209, under it, at 1200fps. Very accurate out to 1000yds and more.

  18. #18
    Boolit Mold Palma-Match 308 190gr Win's Avatar
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    Thanks all.

    I asked last Friday one of our gunsmiths around here. He didn't know exactly the Pedersoli proof mark, but despite that he was sure that my RB-Rifle can handle the fast Hornady FTX-Round properly.

    Because of the higher proofing.. "Pedersoli produces good guns".. .

    I'll ask tomorrow my other gunsmith here. Only to be really sure.

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    3 different power-levels in the good old .45-70 Govt. that are many different levels.. . The guy which is interested in this 1220 Bar-Rifle, on the other side, must look for himself. I need the certainty of proof for my example. Hornady does not describe the use of her FTX-Ammo explicitly as the other makers do, for example Remington: for use in all rifles, for example. Unfortunately not.

    BR
    Palma-Match .308 190 gr HPBT Win.

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master



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    The 1220 BAR figure is from a third-party gun ad that is either a typo or bad info.

    In the US the voluntary Standard is SAAMI. In Europe C.I.P is the governing body and it is not voluntary.

    In the US "safe for all rifles" 45/70 ammo is 28,000 PSI/CUP max. Normally PSI and CUP are different. At 28,000 they are the same.

    For C.I.P 45/70 ammo max pressure is 31908 psi | 2200 bar

    https://www.tiropratico.com/CIP/Comm...e/45-70gov.pdf

    The Hornady ammo is both SAAMI and C.I.P complaint.

    Per Dick Trenk

    https://www.go2gbo.com/threads/peder...-limits.59195/

    for all you guys that own pedersoli rifles, good info.

    Many BPCR owners are concerned about the safety of original and replica rifles. Of course an original should be examined by a gunsmith who is familiar with such arms and who is competent to pronounce the arm safe or unsafe. There is always the temptation to try and shoot an old gun which may have been in your family a long time or which you recently obtained. In most cases it is safe to fire such an old gun using the correct black powder and bullet weight but the following advice should be considered first.

    Certain types of steel alloy used in original guns of the BP era may have changed over the 100+ years of time. Once safe guns may now have internal cracks or molecular flaws which have developed over such long time periods. Age alone may have made the steel become "brittle" and unable to withstand ignition pressure safely.

    Therefore, even though the exterior of a gun may look normal, there could be serious problems within the barrel and action which might cause a failure when even a "normal" powder charge is fired.

    As a basic guideline.........when loading "full case" charges of the correct grade of BP behind a bullet of normal weight for that caliber, you will not exceed a pressure of around 22,000 to 26000 psi (or CUP) and modern made replica guns can handle such pressures safely. Use of a heavier than normal bullet or a black powder grain size which is too small in size, will cause higher than expected ignition pressures.

    Original BP guns with internal flaws or replica guns which may have been repeatedly fired with excessive pressures in the past, may fail even with a so called "normal" load.

    Original antique firearms have the best steel available at that time but today we understand more clearly that the old time steel contains various impurities and inclusions which after more than 100 years, can cause internal weakness and flaws which could cause the gun to be unable to safely handle it's normal chamber pressure. To avoid damage to the old gun as well as preventing injuries to the shooter or bystanders, it is suggested that original antique guns be fired only with reduced or mild charges……. after having been inspected by a qualified gunsmith.

    The situation is quite different when smokeless powders or a "duplex load" having both smokeless and BP is being used.

    Really dangerous and destructive pressures are easily produced which can result in damage to the gun as well as injury to both shooter and bystanders.

    Because of the dangers mentioned above, and the fact that no one outside of a testing laboratory or proof house has the proper equipment to measure the pressure and strain produced by any ammunition, the Pedersoli company states that their cartridge rifles are to be fired only with "commercially produced" smokeless powder ammunition or, with black powder ammunition which meets the pressure limits set forth by the European C.I.P or American SAAMI organizations for each caliber or cartridge name.

    Pedersoli & Co. like all Italian firearms manufacturers, is required by law, to have every firearm proof tested at the Italian National Proof House in Gardone Italy.

    Many other European gun makers also send their complete gun or barreled actions to this same proof house when there is no similar proof house in their home country. Buyers look for proof marks as an assurance of safety and quality so manufacturers pay the extra price to have guns proofed by a recognized govt. controlled proof house.

    Below is a copy of the standard letter Pedersoli provides to customers who ask about the proof test pressures for their Black Powder Ctg. Rifles.

    It should be noted that in the USA, Federal or State Law does not require the proof testing of civilian firearms and there is no national proof house in the USA for such testing.

    Only military contract firearms receive high pressure proof testing under strictly controlled conditions. All other firearms may or may not be proof tested by the manufacturer in some manner and if proof testing is performed, there is no government supervision or control so the customer must rely upon the manufacturers’ reputation in regards to the firearm strength. Fortunately, even though commercial firearms made in the USA do not have proof testing marks they are found to be strong enough for commercial ammunition made according to recognized SAAMI pressure ratings and the customer relies upon the reputation of both the gun and ammo manufacturer.

    PEDERSOLI PROOF TESTING STATEMENT

    All Pedersoli rifles are proof tested at the (Italian government) National Firing Proof House with smokeless powder cartridges with a pressure exceeding that of the ‘commercial’ factory made ammunition by 30 %.

    For the .45-70 caliber we normally recommend the use of commercially made ammunition because of it being easily available on the world market. We show here some warnings about C.I.P. rules:

    C.I.P WARNING

    Our guns are proof tested according to the rules imposed by C.I.P. (International Proof Commission). Proof test pressure is 30% stronger than the maximum pressure of a commercial cartridge (Pmax.) Pmax pressures are measured in BAR units.

    The below mentioned data are compared to the Crusher (CUP) and PSI method.

    The equivalent maximum pressure value of the commercial cartridges measured according to the English/American P.S.I. and C.U.P. system is obtained by multiplying the BAR value x 14.5037.

    The list below represents the maximum pressure to be developed by a commercial cartridge to be used with our guns, in the various calibers shown .In no case should the cartridges exceed such pressure values.



    Smokeless Powder Cartridges

    Calibers


    BAR


    CUP – PSI

    30-30 Win.


    2800


    40611

    30-40 Krag


    2850


    41335

    38-55 Win.


    2150


    31182

    357 Mag.


    3200


    46411

    45 Colt


    1100


    15945

    45-70 Govt.


    2000


    29007(*)

    8x57 JRS


    2900


    42060

    9,3x74R


    3000


    43511



    Black Powder Cartridges

    Caliber


    BAR


    CUP – PSI

    38-55 B.P.


    2000


    29007

    40-65 B.P.


    1723


    25000

    45-70 B.P.


    1723


    25000

    45-90 B.P.


    1723


    25000

    45-100,110 B.P.


    1723


    25000

    45-120 B.P.


    1723


    25000

    45-70 Light B.P.


    1241


    18000 (**)

    50-70, 50-90 Light B.P.


    1241


    18000 (**)

    50-70, 50-90 B.P.


    1723


    25000 (*)





    These calibers with B.P. indicate the use of commercial cartridges cases reloaded with BLACK POWDER only.

    (*) This pressure is allowable for modern made Pedersoli rifles in 38-55, 40-65, 45-70, -90, -100, -110, -120, 50-70, and 50-90. It may not be safe with other brands of replica arms and those mfrs. must be consulted for their data.

    (**) This pressure is generally considered to be near the safe limit for original antique Trapdoor model rifles which have been examined by a qualified gunsmith and found to be in good condition. Modern made Pedersoli Trapdoor 45-70 rifles are safe to the higher 29007 PSI/CUP pressure. Other brands of modern made Trapdoor rifles may not be safe at this high pressure and the mfr. must be consulted for their data.

    The modern replica Sharps, Rolling Block and Trapdoor models we produce are stronger than their original versions due in part to improved steels as well as minor changes made to strengthen original design weakness and add some discrete safety features.

    Although it is unpleasant to shoot maximum pressure loadings, we do permit the use of ammunition which does not exceed 29007 psi or CUP in these BP Ctg Rifles, regardless of their caliber. This allowable maximum pressure may be obtained using either black powder or smokeless powder loadings.

    When using smokeless powder it is the responsibility of the reloader to use only the correct type of powder as well as the correct weight of powder in conjunction with the type and weight of bullet being reloaded.

    Use ONLY the printed reloading charges listed by the powder manufacturer and which show the chamber pressure for each such reloading combination.

    We recommend the Accurate Arms reloading book #2 (phone 800 416 3006 ) as meeting all our requirements for bullet types, pressure readings and powder charge selections.

    Other powder and bullet manufacturers books are equally recommended if they list all the required data.

    The Pedersoli company assumes no responsibility for injury or damage caused by firing ammunition loaded wrongly or to excessive pressures.

    We are aware that there is smokeless powder 45-70 cal. commercial ammunition being sold which advertises pressures of 40,000 psi and we advise against use of this type ammunition. The large capacity thinwall brass cases are not designed to handle such excessive pressures and will have a very short reloadable life and may burst when fired at such high psi. For "ALL" large case black powder calibers, the best accuracy is obtained by the use of carefully developed loads using blackpowder and cast lead bullets in a bullet length suitable for the barrel twist of your rifle.

    For Davide Pedersoli & Co.
    Dick Trenk
    Competition Events Coordinator


    If you want more credible sources (not gunsmith WAG's or internet bull) just search "Pedersoli proof test rules and allowable limits"
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 11-08-2022 at 07:43 PM.
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  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy SoonerEd's Avatar
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    I have a rolling block in 45-70 and downloaded manual a year ago. If anyone wants it send me a PM with your email address. The manual say 29,000 for smokeless and 25,000 for Pyrodex.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check