7mm Soup Can -- indicate interest please

[Oldfeller]

Call it the 7mm Soup Can ..... accurate ..... fast ..... same as the 30 soup can bullet.

What do you guys say to this idea? Any interest?

Please respond below.

Oldfeller

[MRJ55]

Mr. Oldfellow,
I am brand new to this forum but have been following this forum back when it was on Shooters Talk. I really like your idea of a 7mm soupcan. I have several 7mm-8, a 7x57, and a 7TCU that could benefit from your design. Put me down as a buyer.

[old goat]

...Oldfeller,
...Good looking bullet, with lots of info on the drawing. What do you guess the weight in w/w alloy would be? Looks to be heavier than the "soup can", as this has more lube grooves. Of course, I may be wrong as I don't have that mould, and it is smaller in diameter.


...old goat

[45nut]

yep..mee tooooo. I have really been trying not to partake in any more Lee buys since I had not been really using what I have on hand,kinda like 80% of my guns. However,this one is really pretty tempting. Too tempting.

[fatnhappy]

I've been following your posts on the 7-08 with great interest Oldfeller. I like it so much I have two.
I'm going to straddle the fence until this comes to fruition. I hate to say this, but right now my loads for deer season are fully developed, I anticipate breaking my budget with gas so high and Christmas is around the corner. I have some serious familial obligation to attend as well.
Another mould might not be in the works.

[Buckshot]

..............Well I suppose I'd get one as I assume this is a 6 cavity deal? Looks like the throats in my milsurp 7mms would just eat that one up. Naturally I'd try it out in the seven ole 7x57's I have, but my druthers'd be a 175gr Loverin Honker. But, since I'm not honcho'en..........

.............Buckshot

[Oldfeller]

Hey Buckshot, nobody said you couldn't Honcho -- you volunteering? Honcho the long one or the short one, I don't mind. You'd get it in a six banger that way for sure (el longo was designed to go into a six banger mold block, BTW).

Right now, somebody offer some good comments on ways to improve the 7mm Soup Can design or the long design. The Soup Can is large enough diameter-wise to ride the long throat walls on the Paul Mauser 7mm guns and it is short enough to fit in modern throated 7mm Remington Magnums and even in modern throated 7mm-08 guns (just barely).

And I hate to say it, but there are a lot more modern 7mms out there than model 93s that still have shootable bores. Witness poor Junior's struggle to find an inexpensive used tube for his 93, 7x57 isn't all that easy to do any more.

Actually, the Soup Can is my best design shot at fitting "everybody's disparate needs". El Longo won't fit anything but a Paul Mauser and maybe a worn throated 7mm Magnum without going down into the boiler room. On a 7mm-08 it would be sticking like 2+ bands worth down into the boiler room.

But there is room for lattitude here -- if you want either one in a six banger and are willing to Honcho it I'm good with that -- I won't be in town consistently anyway so it would be better for you to do it.

Oldfeller

PS: Have you considered making the nose and first two driver bands on El Longo .280" diameter so it will load land top rider style in the modern guns? Might pick up some more people that way, it would cover the 7 Mags and possibly even the 7mm-08s that have magazine capacity to hold it (mine would).

[Junior1942]

Isn't that .289" OD a little big?

[StarMetal]

Oldfeller,

Try more like over a 1/4 inch of El Longo would be in the boiler room of a 7mm-08. I'm not real sure a new 7mm-08 will handle a .289 body as Junior is concerned too. Now the old 7x57's would be fine. I think you fellows should either make a bullet for the old 7x57's floating around or newer 7mm's we have...not one for both.

Have you played with the 6.5 Kurtz yet????

Joe

[StarMetal]

Oldfeller,

Here's a picture of a Lyman 150 gr Loverin seated to touch the rifling in my Sako 7mm-08. Give you an idea of how deep you have to go with the heavy 7mm Loverin?

Joe

[Oldfeller]

OK, feedback so far is go modern or go old style, quit trying to please everybody with the same silly bullet.

Modern guns would have a bullet OD of .286" to size to .285" or thereabouts -- it is the old worn throat Paul Mausers that must have the huge ODs to run down their big old throats.

More comments please -- the better we tweek it now the better it is ......

[StarMetal]

Oldfeller,

You are familar with the Lee 135gr 7mm bullet. It's half groove bands and half borerider. Okay...that bullet seated with the base flush with the neck/shoulder junction on the 7mm-08 round fits my Sako to a T. So, if you're thinking a short loverin for the more modern 7mm's, it will still have to be seated below the neck for a 7mm-08 or it will have to be a very very short bullet. I'm not trying to get you fellows to design a bullet for me or my Sako specifically,but my 7mm-08 has the typical SAAMI spec dimensions, just pointing that out. Then if you do make a half and half bullet you have to contend with the nose portion being either too fat or to skinny.

Joe

[Oldfeller]

Joe, no I haven't cast or shot the 6.5 Kurtz yet. It sits on my mold shelf, gathering dust. Why?? Because it absolutely struggled for fine accuracy at full speed for too many of those that did try it for it to be a hot button for me right now. (Karlina sucks, she's a ball-busting vicious mean blonde bitch dressed in skin-tight red leather -- armed with a riding crop no less) Ask Buckshot why he hasn't shot his Karlina yet.

Actually, it helped to push me up to 7mm bore size for my light cast bullet gun for plinking & varmint popping. I think my current project gun with the proposed 7mm Soup Can bullet has a lot more potential for high speed success than 6.5 ever did.

CBI spreadsheet said 6.5 Kurtz could get 2,400 fps before it started to open up and you alone managed to get up there (barely) with good accuracy.

CBI spreadsheet says 7mm Soup Can could get up to 3,400 fps before it starts to get dizzy. ****, I can't even imagine shooting the 7mm Soup Can that fast, although with a 7mm Remington Magnum you theoretically could boost it up around that fast with some pretty large charges of slow powder.

Now, which one will I spend the time bedding the barrel to the stock on and making sure the trigger is "just so" and the scope mounts are low and sweet and tight? Which one did I just go spend money on for a nice brand new un-banged-up Simmons 50mm scope for? You guessed it ....

If the 7mm Soup Can weighs 110-120 grains and it can be slow powder boosted to middle 20's speedwise (with good accuracy) then I've got my varmint & plinking cast round & my light carry rifle all doped out.

Plus, should I actually see a deer during hunting season (should some young buck actually fail to completely disappear during those magic few weeks) I'd pop him in the lungs in a heart-beat as the 7mm Soup Can would act about like a .243 Winchester bullet would as far as homogenizing a Bambi's breathing apparatus goes. Plus, I might even get me a wee little bitty exit wound out of him, on a side-on lung shot anyway .....

Now, if I was going for a Texas Train shot (a buck trailing a doe, both headed away from you) then I would pull out Karlina and lope off a cruise missile at his little round aiming spot.

I'd likely be able to tag the doe as an "accidental kill" and claim a miracle for the penetration that did it. 6.5x55 cast does have its useful niche, you know.

Oldfeller

[Oldfeller]

Joe, what's wrong with the 7mm Soup Can as just re-diametered for the modern guns? I'm not following you completely as you are talking LEE standard bullet comparison stuff and you may be missing some items as you do so, being all focused on a land top rider bullet which does well in your gun that I don't even have unmodified to look at any more.

Just talking Soup Can design (counting from the nose, seating the gas check only just below the base of the neck) then the book 7mm-08 case mouth stops at the end of the second driver band (or just completely covering the third lube groove, counting from the nose on both items).

This lets me use the the second driver band to support a slight taper crimp "stop point" should I ever need to keep the bullets from moving back into the case during load/unload cycling type action -- say with some heavy rifling engagement for example.

My .160" long .286" diameter throat just barely covers the next two exposed driver bands (actually thrust seating the start of the first driver band into end of the throat on bolt-close, actually).

Talk about your pretty crush fits ....

The start of my rifling now engraves only the ogive curve and the .030" straight section at the end of the ogive. Now, with a different gun you should be able to move this bullet FORWARD in the case neck to accomodate your own particular gun in similar fashion because there is .284" worth of lateral forward seating motion available by design so the 7mm Soup Can should be able to snuggle up forward in a 7mm Remington Magnum to get a similar cuddly fit up - much less be able to cuddle up in your tight throated 7mm-08 Sako.

How deep is your Sako's throat anyway? Just distance from the case mouth to start of rifling, don't do any of that fancy back of case heat stuff (KISS works fine).

Ok, so now is the time to tell me what I screwed up -- we are still at the design talking stage and anything that can be ID'd and explained can be fixed.


Oldfeller

[StarMetal]

Kelly,

That picture I posted of the 150 Loverin seated in a 7mm-08 has about .312 inch from the case mouth to the groove diameter of the nose, that is where the ogive tapers to the fattest point. This is snugging the bullet into the throat or leade in and letting the bolt seat the bullet so the action is totally closed. I haven't measure the throad with our pound method simply because the gun shoots so good why bother. If you are familar with the flat base Hornady 139 gr spire point, I can only seat this bullet in my Sako so that the cannelure is out of the case mouth and only about .0156 of the full bullet diameter is showing between the case mouth and cannelure. In other words barely seat it out longer then where it was meant to be crimped, if one were to crimp it which I do not. Why they come up with a super good round like the 7mm-08 and then limit the chamber to short bullets is beyond me when this little number could kick on the heels of the 280. Loading heavy lond bullets really cramps the powder capacity. But this is all another matter. I'm wondering why I would need a short light 7mm cast bullet when the Lee 135 does more for me then I really asked it to do. I mean almost 2700 fps and hovering that one inch group at 100 meters, shoot....plenty good enough for me and I wouldn't be shooting it that fast to begin with. That was just for Dan's contest. I could use a softer alloy and cut the velocity back to anywhere between 2200 fps and that 2700 and have a good load for ground hogs and deer.

Speaking of deer, I can't make up my mind if I want to shoot one this year with my 8x56R Steyr and your "Boxcar" bullet, or with my 260 and the 6.5 Kurtz bullet. Have to do the eenie meenie minie mo routine I suppose.

To tell you the truth I have that really lovely 1908 or is it 09 Brazilian 7x57 98 action rifle sitting in the safe and not being able to shoot it, well not accurately, because I don't have a 7mm bullet fat enough for it. It has a really good bore but it's fat. We talked about that before. So I'd lean towards a heavy fatter 7mm cast bullet like Buckshot.

Joe

[C1PNR]

Hmmmmm. I may be able to use the .286 7mm kurtz in the Ruger 7 x 57, if that thing is willing to shoot anything well. And that would be the only FN design I have under 168 grain.

But I liked the .289 diameter for use in the Military 95's and the Brazilian. Buckshot, is this the one you were thinking of for the longer one:

I'd be willing to sign on for one of those in a 6 banger. Actually, I'll go for one of each, if either gets off the ground.

[45 2.1]

You notice that the title was for 93 and 95 mausers which could also go for the 1908s and 35s. There isn't any boolit out there that fits their large throats except this one. On the other hand there are several that have an excellent reputation in the 7mm-08 at the right size no less. A nice fat bullet for the OLD rifles would get more of them shooting.

[Oldfeller]

Go with the 6.5 Kurtz and the 260, the Boxcar is such a brutal bullet that it would get the SPCA after you if you got caught even carrying one in your pocket. Plus the recoil isn't all that pleasant to deal with should you actually go shoot one. Plus, you want some deer left after you shoot it, don't you?

Finesse and the 260, that's the ticket. Much easier on the nerves.

So, your Sako's throat is long enough to use the 7mm Soup Can (you'd actually have to seat if forward a bit to get to your 0.312" engagement point), you just don't see the need to go buy the mold as you really don't need it.

I can understand that, as I don't need El Longo as I don't have a 7x57 any more and I certainly don't need it as clean bored mil-surp 7x57s are all long long gone.

One of you 7x57 guys needs to step forward to Honcho a six banger run on El Longo on a different thread. It's a good bullet design, it just doesn't fit modern guns.

Now, back to discussing the MODERN 7mm Soup Can design -- anybody got any improvements or any questions???

Oldfeller

PS For you newbies, the .333 Boxcar was a second generation follow-on to Frankie that was created after Frankie took off on walkabout, never ever to be seen or heard from again. Frankie was short for Frankenstein and his son Boxcar was named after some big ugly football player who was supposedly even bigger and meaner than Frankenstein. The Boxcar was designed to be a bigger meaner "8mm" bullet than Bass's 250 grain 35 Whelen bullet that he designed to be bigger and meaner than the 250 grain 8mm Maximum (Midsouth) which was the reigning big mean hunting bullet for about 3 years or there abouts. The little bitty thing next to it is a 190 grain 30-30 case & bullet.

Joe is talking about going hunting with something much smaller than that ....

The great big print they are both lying on is to try to help you guys focus on the bullet this thread is named after. I know, you need reminding -- so do I from time to time.

[StarMetal]

Kelly,

The Lee bullet snugs tight into my Sako's throat with the base of the bullet a tad about the neck/shoulder junction, about 1/16th of an inch.

I don't know, I have some unheat treated bullets loaded for Boxcar that I'm just itching to try on a deer.

Well I still have the one 7x57 Mauser, the dies, the one mould, and brass so I'd kinda like to get a fat mould for the rifle, or maybe even just sell it all.

Joe

[Oldfeller]

Joe, you just want to go blow something up in a really gruesome fashion.

Knock yourself out (literally) and take a big digi picture of the exit wound & post it in living color. Bass had him a bambi with its entire liver hitting the ground, you should certainly be able to do better than that.

If you or somebody else wants to honcho a El Longo, go for it. This here is freedom hall, I ain't telling nobody they can't go do stuff.

I was asked in a PM if we could .284" diameter the ogive nose section and the first driver band on the 7mm Soup Can -- I guess the theory was that the bullet could be loaded forward into a slightly eroded throat and fit it better that way.

I betcha the guy has him a burn throated 7mm Magnum or a worn 7x57 Classic which needed the sloped reach. It would not hurt my 7mm-08 loading, so I really don't care either way. All it would mean is I would go forward with the crush loading one band width forward and that would be OK with me if it means the bullet fits more guns better.

Comments?

Oldfeller