Original 45 Colt

[mtgrs737]

I think that right now Lee is so busy trying to fill the needs of their dealers that any new projects would be put on a far back burner. GB moulds are now quoted at 8 to 12 months. You might call them and talk to them (Mr. Lee) about it, but your time might be better spent talking to Mountain Moulds. You might be able to make a jig to drill out the bases of standard boolits if you need some Hollow based ones. Just a thought.

[mtgrs737]

Opentop,

I just got a Lyman 454190 and it seems to have a small meplat, what was the diameter of the orginal?

[Dale53]

If the bullet is the correct size for the particular revolver, there is little need for a hollow base. Hollow base bullets are a royal pain in the tuckus to cast AND one at a time.

I much prefer a proper solid base bullet in a four or six cavity mould. NOW we're talking.

If 200 gr is your pleasure and you are considering black powder maybe the Big Lube 200 gr bullet is the answer (we'll find out shortly as one of the group has a mould on the way).

If the original weight bullet is desired (250-260 grs) then you can hardly do better than the Lyman 452664. The lube groove is plenty big enough for black powder and this bullet is available from Lyman in a four cavity mould. It also has a large enough meplat for hunting, if that is your pleasure. All in all, a VERY good bullet with both black and smokeless.

I have shot several thousand of the Lyman 452664 with absolutely excellent results.

Dale53

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Hi OPENTOP, count me in on a group by if you drum up enough folks,
Best , S.L. 45/70

[fredj338]

To chime in, what is a good mold for the saa that is currently available and reasonable? What do most shoot in the cowboy shoots?

Most guys shooting 45colt in CAS are shooting a 200grRNFP. LEss recoil & enough mass to take down steel. That's what I shoot as well. Some even go lighter, very few shoot the 255grLRNFP.

[Tom Myers]

Just for kicks, I scaled out the N.E.I. Sketch and entered the values into the Cast Bullet Design and Evaluation software.

For what it's worth, this is the result:

Tom Myers
Precision Ballistics and Records

[dubber123]

Tom, thats a dead ringer for my old, (no vent grooves) Ideal 454190 I have. Big lube grooves, I assume for BP usage.

[j20owner]

Hi OPENTOP, count me in on a group by if you drum up enough folks,
Best , S.L. 45/70

If you check the Group Buy section, we do have a group buy going for a copy of the 454190 copy. We already have at least 25 ordered, and he's going to keep it open till mid-March.

[mtgrs737]

If the bullet is the correct size for the particular revolver, there is little need for a hollow base. Hollow base bullets are a royal pain in the tuckus to cast AND one at a time.

I much prefer a proper solid base bullet in a four or six cavity mould. NOW we're talking.

If 200 gr is your pleasure and you are considering black powder maybe the Big Lube 200 gr bullet is the answer (we'll find out shortly as one of the group has a mould on the way).

If the original weight bullet is desired (250-260 grs) then you can hardly do better than the Lyman 452664. The lube groove is plenty big enough for black powder and this bullet is available from Lyman in a four cavity mould. It also has a large enough meplat for hunting, if that is your pleasure. All in all, a VERY good bullet with both black and smokeless.

I have shot several thousand of the Lyman 452664 with absolutely excellent results.

Dale53

I have the Lyman 452664 in a four cavity that I have had the bevel base removed from, this gives a nice flat base. This bullet has a huge meplat and lube groove, It casts 256grs. at 453" diameter in ww alloy for me. I like the crimp groove and the overall loaded length is shorter than the longer nosed 454190.

[opentop]

Opentop,

I just got a Lyman 454190 and it seems to have a small meplat, what was the diameter of the orginal?

The meplat is .190 on the old Ideal tong tool that springfield has.

Hi OPENTOP, count me in on a group by if you drum up enough folks,
Best , S.L. 45/70

The group buy is underway at this link.

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/...ad.php?t=44760

[opentop]

If 200 gr is your pleasure and you are considering black powder maybe the Big Lube 200 gr bullet is the answer (we'll find out shortly as one of the group has a mould on the way).

Hey Dale, I already have the 45 PRS Big Lube.

[ddeaton]

Hey Dale, I already have the 45 PRS Big Lube.

I guess we have a spare now and a new 38 Snakebite.

[Dale53]

Danny and John;
In my own, rather primitive intellect, I frankly see little need for such a big lube groove. However, if it works, it works and that will be the end of it.

The "standard" square bottomed lube groove of the Lyman 452664 has worked VERY well for me with my Ruger Bisley Vaquero with both black AND smokeless. It does not run out of lube in my 5.5" barrel and I can get as many as 70 shots or so with decent accuracy (1.5" at 25 yards) with both 2F and 3F powder with three different brands. I DO realize that is only ONE revolver (didn't run tests on a hundred different revolvers) but that one of mine sure works well.

At any rate, I am very interested in trying the Big Lube bullets and we'll try to give them a real test.

My Bisley just has the issued fixed sights and with my recent vision problems, that may be a problem. However, I have two Taurus Raging Bulls in .454 Casull. One of them is scoped and we'll be able to give a real test of this bullet using that. I don't mind shooting black powder in them, either. I can also hang a Red Dot on the other so we'll have a pretty good pair of test platforms. Can you "hear" the anticipation in my voice.

By the way, John, that is an excellent picture. It sure shows what you are trying to describe (one picture is worth a thousand words, et al).

Dale53

[opentop]

Danny and John;
In my own, rather primitive intellect, I frankly see little need for such a big lube groove. However, if it works, it works and that will be the end of it.

I agree that the Big Lube it probably over kill for revolvers, but would have its advantage in rifles. I just thought it was a neat mold and just had to have one.

[cajun shooter]

Dale, I've been shooting the Big Lube bullets for about 8 months now. They are over kill for the revolvers but come on strong for the rifle. The 452664 and 454190 are also molds that I have and use for Cas. I shoot the Frontier Cartridge class with the cases full of 2F powder. No mouse fart loads fo me!! I think that CAS has gotten away from it's roots and is now ruled by the "Gamers". The big lube make clean up so easy. Where they fall down is in long range shooting, which they were not designed for. This is 454190 territory. I've decided to try something on a up coming match. I'm loading some 454190's to shoot the side long range matches and after I will shoot the big lubes to help with any fouling. Should have the best of both worlds. The J/P 200 gr loaded in front of a full Schofield case of 2F works great at shoots with close revolver targets and the 250 gr PRS at the longer targets. So now I only have to load three different bullets to cover this thing callked CAS. Later David AKA Fairshake

[edlmann]

Origonally the 45 colt was not chambered in any rifle/carbine so did not need much of a meplate, or even a rim on the case.

Without a rim, where would you have it headspace in the SAA, on the roll crimped case mouth?

I vaguely remember reading years ago that the small rim on the .45LC is because of the .45 S&W Schofield revolver. For years the cartridges loaded by/for the Army were shorter to allow shooting them in both revolvers and I think that the original .45LC rim was a bit too large in diameter for the S&W.

[Dale53]

I have seen pictures of early .45 Colt cartridges (in the 1880's or earlier) and they had just a VERY small rim. Frankly, in the '73 Colt Single Action Army, they didn't need any larger a rim and they sure didn't "over do" that one, for sure. The cases looked like they were made of copper. They really looked pretty much like a rimfire case with an inside centerfire primer.

Dale53

[Mike Venturino]

Edlman: You have that backwards. The original rim of a .45 Colt was only about .502 inch in diameter. The Schofield was about .518. Those measurements are taken from original cartridges. The Schofield needed the wider rim in order for the S&W #3 extractor to have something to push against.

Original military .45 Colt loads were loaded with 250 grain bullets and 30 grains bp. Original military .45 S&W loads had 230 grain bullets with 28 grains of bp. A friend has an original .45 Colt military cartridge box (still full) dated January 1874. I'll try to post it here but don't hold your breath.



And with any luck, here is a photo of the bases of several .45 Colt and .45 S&W Schofield cases. Also worthy of note is the fact that when the US Military adopted the .45 Colt for the second time in 1909 they made the rim diameter even bigger than the .45 S&W. My sample round has a rim diameter of .534 inch. That was so the cases would have positive extraction from the star extractor of the Colt New Service.



That 1909 .45 Colt case is at the far left. If you look closely you can tell it is significantly wider in diameter than either the .45 Colt or .45 S&W cases to the right.

I hope these come through ok.
MLV

[Mike Venturino]

Until about 1881 .45 caliber military cartridge cases were indeed copper and although centerfire they had an inside primer.

Cartridge at left is original military .45 S&W in copper case. Cartridge in center is commercial .45 S&W and cartridge at right is the .45 "Short" Colt which the unknowing say never existed. It has the very narrow rim of the .45 Colt, is headstamped .45 Colt but has a case length of only 1.10 inches. And don't think it was intended for the S&W Schofield revolver. It won't work with their extractors. I tried it.




MLV

[KirkD]

Well that photo above of the 45 'Short' Colt is worth a thousand words and settles a lot of arguments! I never knew such a round existed. It is a pleasure to see photos of these old rounds. Excellent post!