Load DataInline FabricationSnyders JerkyMidSouth Shooters Supply
Lee PrecisionWidenersRotoMetals2Titan Reloading
Repackbox Reloading Everything
Page 1 of 34 1234567891011 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 662

Thread: RPM Test; a tale of three twists, Chapter 2

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    21,326

    RPM Test; a tale of three twists, Chapter 2

    RPM Test; a tale with three twists

    Chapter 2; Test 1 [311291 of 2/1 alloy]

    Yesterday broke clear with the promise of some warmth and little wind so I packed up the three rifles, the M43 PBL, the test ammo and the usual other necessary accoutrements for the range and set off the Tacoma Rifle and Revolver Club to conduct the first test. The primary goal of this test was to see if we could determine what causes the 311291 cast bullet to loose accuracy at a certain level. On arrival at TRRC I proceeded to set up. The benches there are very solid benchrest designed and made. It was about 46-48 degrees in the shade of the firing line but was into the 50s in the sunshine. Wind was coming out of 11 o’clock at 1-3 mph. The target distance was 103 yards. The testing was begun using the 10” twist rifle and then the 12” twist rifle and finally the 14” twist rifle. The barrels were cleaned between every two 5 shot groups with 2 foulers fired before testing was resumed. All data was collected via the M43 using pressure recording, muzzle screens and down range screens. Besides information on the rifle, load and test conditions the M43 provided data on the following information;

    Data recorded for each shot;
    • Velocity at the muzzle screens
    • Proof variance of muzzle screens
    • Time Of Flight between muzzle screens and down range screens (in front of 100 yard target)
    • The down range velocity
    • Proof variance of down range screens
    • Ballistic Coefficient
    • Peak average pressure (psi.m43)
    • Area under the pressure curve
    • Rise of pressure curve
    • Actual pressure curve

    Summary of shot data for recorded shots in the group;
    • Average velocity at muzzle screens
    • Average Proof variance of muzzle screens
    • Average TOF
    • Average down range velocity at down range screens
    • Average proof variance of down range screens
    • Average Ballistic Coefficient
    • Average peak pressure
    • Average area under the pressure curve
    • Average rise of pressure curve
    • Standard Deviation of each of the above data averages
    • The high reading of each of the above data fields
    • The low reading of each of the above data fields
    • The Extreme Spread of each of the above data fields.

    The M43 also provided the additional data on Standard Atmospheric Ballistics;
    • Bullet path from muzzle to 250 yards based on data entered and the actual BC
    • 10 mph wind deflection
    • Computed muzzle velocity (fps)
    • Energy (ft-lbs)
    • Power factor
    • Recoil of the rifle

    The testing was uneventful except for one low shot that hit one of the down range screens….ooops! It knocked a chunk of the plastic off but didn’t actually hurt anything. As the groups enlarged I did have a few rounds that hit on the edge of the window and didn’t read. This cut some of the group data to 4 shots instead of 5 and one group to 3 shots of recorded data. The first test was with the 311291 cast of 2 parts WW to 1 part linotype. This gives an alloy that with the bullets air cooled the hardness of the bullets is similar to Lyman’s #2 alloy. That has long been a standard for cast bullets. As mentioned in Chapter 1, the cases for all three rifles were fire formed to the specific rifles and “match prepped” as such. The primers used are WLRs. Two powders were used. H4895, a medium burning powder, was used with a Dacron filler in 2 gr increments from 26 gr to 38 gr. This was expected, and did, to give velocities from 1700 fps or so up through 2500 fps. The second powder tested was H4831SC, a slow burning powder, loaded in 2 gr increments from 40 to 46 gr to give from 90 to 100% loading density. The only sorting done with the 311291 bullets were to inspect them for wrinkles, voids of non fillout. None were weighed for segregation by weight. The gas checks used were Hornady’s. They were pre-seated with the Lyman GC seater on a Lyman 450 with the .311 H die and then lubed in the .310 H die. The lube used was Javelina. At no time during the test was there any indication of leading or “lube failure”.

    All told in Test 1 I fired 75 shots for record plus 10 foulers through each rifle for a total of 250 shots . After returning home it seemed a daunting task to sort through the data, measure groups and put it into some format that is easily presented on this forum. I could list all sorts of numbers in various manners but that would just get confusing. From the listed data the M43 provides on each shot plus the averages let me tell you I’ve got lots of numbers! I decided instead to put the pertinent data onto graph form. That is a “visual” way to present information and it gives valid comparisons which are easy to see and make comparisons from. It is easy enough to pull additional information of the graphs if you want it. However the little squares of the graph did not scan well so if you want some specific information don’t hesitate to ask. I couldn’t get the graph on this computer to work right so I resorted to graph paper and hand plotted them.

    Without further ado we might as well get to the meat and potatoes of the test. Graph #1 is a comparison of velocity and pressure. There was considerable consternation from some forum members that pressures would not be “exact” between the rifles. I stated that, disregarding the fact that there is always variation of pressures, even with the same load in the same rifle; the pressures need not be the same in each rifle. In fact they were not. When we graph out the velocity/pressure of the same increasing loads out of different rifles what we expect to see is a linear relationship between them. The linear lines for each (red = 10” twist, blue = 12” twist, green = 14” twist) should run fairly parallel. This gives us a valid comparison of the time pressure curves of each rifle with the other rifles time pressure curves. That’s exactly what we see in graph #1. As the pressure increases the velocity increases pretty close for the 10 and 12” twist rifles but the 14” had some problems. We also see a slight divergence as velocity increases. This is expected as the 12 and 14” twist barrels were longer than the 10” twist barrel so velocity increased more as pressure was increased. Thus the comparison between the rifles is valid as the linear progressions are close to the same. Were one of them radically different then it would be obvious a comparison wasn’t valid. However there is a slight anomaly with the 14” twist. We could pontificate as to why and probably come up with numerous reasons, most of which would probably be wrong. So let’s what the data can tell us regarding that anomaly.

    The answer to the velocity/pressure anomaly with the 14” twist is rather simple and is demonstrated in graph #2. The relationship between pressure and velocity is encompassed in internal ballistics so we merely need to look at that data showing the consistency of the loads, i.e. how consistent the powder burns. Consistency of a load (given a test string of several shots) is most often expressed in Extreme Spread of velocity and Standard Deviation of the combined averages of velocity. SD tells us what a load may do but ES tells us what that load did do. Since I am interested in what the load did do I compared the ES consistency of the loads with the pressure. In graph #2 the loads of the 10 and 12" twists all had ESs of 50 fps or less. That is pretty good consistency given the spread of the loads velocities of 1700 fps through 2500 fps. The 14” twist had some early problems with the powder burning efficiently. We see the ES for the 2nd and 3rd test loads was considerably higher than the same loads in the 10 and 12” twists. That accounts for the small anomaly in the pressure curve of the 14” twist on graph #1. The other, and perhaps more important, piece of information graph #1 gives us is the time pressure curve of the same loads in the different twists. Obviously the curves are pretty close together and linear. Thus the time pressure curve or acceleration is very close to the same for each rifle.

    Next let us consider the question; if the time pressure curves are the same then any deformation to the bullet due to acceleration will be close to the same. Thus if the deformation to each bullet is the same at the same rate of acceleration then any change to the form of the bullet will result in a change to the Ballistic Coefficient. Following that then won’t any changes to the BC be the same for each twist since any deformation of the bullet should be the same? To find the answer to that question we merely compare the BCs of the 3 different twists as the velocity increases (hence the acceleration increases and deformation of the bullet increases). Graph #3 provides the comparison of the BCs vs the velocities of each load in each twist. Let us remember that the BC in this case is a measured BC from the actual flight of the bullets not a guestimated one from some chart. These actual BCs measured the bullets ability to fly through the air efficiently. The higher the BC the less deformed and more stabilized the bullet was. It is readily apparent that the BCs stayed pretty much the same for all three twists during acceleration at all velocities and pressures. It is interesting to note that the BCs of the bullets from the 10” twist retained the highest BC at the highest velocity (acceleration). This is just the opposite what it would be as believed by some on this forum. The BCs from the bullets from all three twists stayed very close together and linear across the wide spectrum of velocity (acceleration) from 1700 to 2500 fps which obviously shows the acceleration remained constant regardless of the twist of the barrel.

    So this is what we now know now about the same loads in the 3 different twists; the time pressure curve is the same, the acceleration is the same and the BCs remain the same. Let’s now take a look at the results on target. After all what we are looking at in conducting this test is the accuracy at higher velocity and why that accuracy goes bad. Graph #4 shows us the group sizes vs pressure. Whoa there! Something is amiss….if the time pressure curves are the same, the acceleration the same and the BCs are the same; then if the groups get larger as we increase velocity shouldn’t the groups get larger by proportionally the same amount? [Note; by “proportional amount” is an amount to compare the accuracy of each twist to each other. The proportional amount of increase is found by dividing the increased group size by the smallest group with each rifle.] However, what we see is that the groups do not get proportionally larger as velocity increases. The inaccuracy of the 10” twist increases 5.38 while the inaccuracy of the 12” twist increases 3.14 and 14” twist increases 2.08. Hmmmmmm……pressure curve is the same, deformation of the bullet from acceleration is the same then why doesn’t inaccuracy increase the same? Especially since graph #4 shows the group size vs pressure. But wait…there’s more (sorry, just couldn’t resist!). Doesn’t every one say that it is pressure that destroys accuracy? We do see that accuracy with all three twists is decreasing with the increase of pressure. If pressure was the only reason for the decrease in inaccuracy then the inaccuracy should be proportional and it isn’t. We also see inaccuracy increases much more with the 10” twist than either the 12 or 14” twists. We also see the 12” twist’s inaccuracy to increase more rapidly than the 14”s inaccuracy. Again, if it was pressure that increased the inaccuracy then why doesn’t the inaccuracy of all three twists increase equally as the pressure increases? It seems there is something other than pressure adversely affecting accuracy and to a much greater extent.

    Okay, let’s look at it one more way just to be fair. Graph #5 compares accuracy to velocity. Something wrong here again….that dreadful 10” twist is once again being more inaccurate by a greater proportional amount than either the 12 or 14” twists. How can this be? We know the acceleration is the same; the BCs are the same so the deformation of the bullet is the same yet the 10” twists inaccuracy is disproportional to the 12 and 14” twists. It should be the same amount of inaccuracy, right? The lines for each twist should be linear right? Yet the proportional inaccuracy are not the same between the twists nor are the lines linear. Have we missed something? Is there another game afoot? We’ve a good handle on the internal ballistics. We know about the terminal ballistics as the groups are self revealing. But have we really looked hard at the external ballistics (the bullets flight)? We know the bullets are stable, we know the BCs are getting smaller telling us there is some deformation from the acceleration. We know the 10” twist had the highest BC at the highest pressure and velocity so why isn’t it as accurate as the 12 and 14” twists?

    Let us look at graph #6. It is a comparison of group sizes vs RPM. Note the very, very obvious adverse affect that the increasing RPM has on the accuracy of the 10” twist. That red line really climbs up there! Also note that area of RPM where the majority of accurate groups fall; it is in or below the RPM threshold. Also note that in or at the top end of the RPM threshold is where accuracy begins to deteriorate.

    The tests with H4831SC seemed to be headed the same way but were inconclusive as top velocity was only 2287 fps with 100% loading density. The 10” twist velocity was 1928 fps through 2287 fps with groups running from 2.4” to 3.3”. RPM was 138,900 to 164,700. Conversely the 14” twist went from 1906 fps to 2265 fps. Groups ran .95” to 2.2”. RPM was 98,000 to 116,600. The highest peak pressure was 39,600 psi.M43. Thus I couldn’t get into a high enough pressure/RPM range with all three twists to make any comparison.

    I am not going to conclude that there is an RPM threshold as the test is not complete. I shall wait until I conclude the test before giving a firm conclusion.

    Chapter 3 will be to see how I can improve on and perhaps push the threshold with 311291 in all 3 twists. I have some cast of linotype (that’s pretty hard stuff). I have them weighed to a +/- ½ gr. I weighed them “dressed” for summer (that’s with just the GC on, not fully “dressed” with lube too). I plan on using Varget and RL15. Probably won’t get around to testing those until May.

    Larry Gibson

    To be continued:
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 10-22-2008 at 11:36 AM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
    sundog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Green Country Oklahoma
    Posts
    3,500
    It's turning into a doctoral thesis...

  3. #3
    Boolit Master on Heavens Range
    felix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    fort smith ar
    Posts
    9,678
    Jolly good show, Larry! Thank you, and please continue the good work. A little overkill for this board, but that's OK too. But, it does remind me of my work days, a'la' Sundog's interpretation. ... felix
    felix

  4. #4
    Boolit Master carpetman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Angelo,Texas
    Posts
    2,281
    Larry Gibson---I am impressed you finally got consistency correct.

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    21,326
    Quote Originally Posted by carpetman View Post
    Larry Gibson---I am impressed you finally got consistency correct.
    Just goes to show I can learn new tricks...

    Larry Gibson

  6. #6
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    89
    Larry
    Congratulatinons On your work and it's presentation.

    Please continue with your research.

    Sailman

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy LeadThrower's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    240
    A great bit of prose, and fantastic display of data!
    Kudos!

  8. #8
    Banned

    Blammer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Asheville, NC
    Posts
    10,427
    Outstanding!

    I suppose I'll be looking for a 1/14 twist now...

  9. #9
    Banned

    Blammer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Asheville, NC
    Posts
    10,427
    I wonder if we could 'sticky' these some where?

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master leftiye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Sagebrush flats, Utah
    Posts
    5,543
    Larry, it is a fine piece of work! B.C. itself however does not necessarily capture the issue of deformation. Base deformations such as blowby- gas cutting might actually show up as an increase in B.C., as could some variations of nose slump. Nor does it obviate the issue of well formed, but out of balance still. We all know what deformed bases do to accuracy.
    We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).

    Every "freedom" (latitude) given to government is a loophole in the rule of law. Every loophole in the rule of law is another hole in our freedom. When they even obey the law that is. Too often government seems to feel itself above the law.

    We forgot to take out the trash in 2012, but 2016 was a charm! YESSS!

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    21,326
    letiye

    I think we can agree that the measurement called "BC" measures the efficiency with which a bullet flies through the air. The higher the BC the more efficient the bullet form; i.e. the bullet is balanced with the center of spin close to the center of gravity, stabilized and flying nose forward.
    Since deformations caused by gas blow by and nose slump are unevenly distributed about the bullet they induce "out of balance". This means the bullet is not flying through the air efficiently; i.e. the bullet is out of balance, the center of spin is not close to the center of gravity, the bullet may have stability problems. Additionally an uneven base creates yaw and pitch which you correctly state “we all know what deformed bases do to accuracy”. All of these are factors that detract from a bullets efficient flight through the air decrease the BC of a bullet.

    Could you please elucidate on how these deformations (slumped nose and uneven base) “might actually show up as an increase in B.C.” as I don't understand how they could?

    Thank you for the compliment.

    Larry Gibson

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master leftiye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Sagebrush flats, Utah
    Posts
    5,543
    Higher ballistic coefficients do result from other things than better balance (shape for instance). Though you are correct, I think, that out of balance should reflect in somewhat poorer flight characteristics, there are other factors than balance around the axis of weight as affected by rpm that produce loss of accuracy. The actual shapes producing the out of balance would be one. And this is often a result of deformation or flaws in casting that affect flight without resulting in velocity loss. Didn't your test show the 1 in 10 B.C.s getting better while the accuracy went south at high velocities?

    They do not necessarily produce balance problems, only a change in shape which is not necessarily bad from an aerodynamic viewpoint. An uneven base may produce little or no imbalance, only a bullet thrown out of line with the intended path (also known as a flier) when the gasses act unevenly on it as it leaves the muzzle. At the same time ballistic stability, and coefficient may be unaffected. I'm not convinced that yawing, etc have to be in the picture, though often (or most of the time) they are.

    A slumped nose could concieveably improve aerodynamics, (though not muy likely, and concentric slumping is probly an unusual event). Other than RPM, the slumped nose if not concentric, will induce the spiral flight path thang due to air resistance. While this kinda thing will possibly slow the boolit (though not necessarily), and refect in changed BC, it is not really an rpm phenomenon in terms of how it buggers up groups. I guess we'd have to call it a flight path or aerodynamic effect. The point being that while not to be expected often, things like this do happen. Further, they too can be so small in size as to be undetectable, just as the imbalances usually are.

    Justa side thought, how does this apply to those who "shoot 'em anyway" anything thet comes out of the mold? A lot of those imperfections cannot be culled out with any method I know of, and especially at lower velocities are supposed to shoot as well as the carefully culled boolits.
    Last edited by leftiye; 04-04-2008 at 08:17 PM.
    We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).

    Every "freedom" (latitude) given to government is a loophole in the rule of law. Every loophole in the rule of law is another hole in our freedom. When they even obey the law that is. Too often government seems to feel itself above the law.

    We forgot to take out the trash in 2012, but 2016 was a charm! YESSS!

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    21,326
    leftiye

    Excellent response, now I know where you are coming from and I agree. A good example is the out of round bullet produced by 2 groove '03 barrels. I also shoot a lot of my "culls". I shoot them as sighters and foulers and just for general shooting. You are right in that the ones with minor imperfections shoot quite well at lower velocities which coincide with the low end of the RPM threshold or under it. This is because the centrifugal force is not great enough at the lower velocity/RPM level to over come the rotational stability of the bullet. If you note in my explanations I said a lower BC could be the result of instability or deformation or both. Also we need to remember that as velocity increases with most cast bullets the BC will also decrease (RN and FN bullets). This to be expected. If we know what the rate of change is with a hard bullet (linotype for instance) and the same bullet of a softer alloy gives a higher rate of change then we know the softer bullets shape is getting deformed and the bullet is out of balance through accelleration. Good topic and good food for thought.

    Larry Gibson

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master leftiye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Sagebrush flats, Utah
    Posts
    5,543
    Dang, I put my asbestos diaper on for nuthin'
    We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).

    Every "freedom" (latitude) given to government is a loophole in the rule of law. Every loophole in the rule of law is another hole in our freedom. When they even obey the law that is. Too often government seems to feel itself above the law.

    We forgot to take out the trash in 2012, but 2016 was a charm! YESSS!

  15. #15
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Marathon, FL
    Posts
    1,259
    Larry;
    Do you have the numbers where you could send them to me? Excel maybe? I do better understanding the numbers.
    Thanks;
    joe b.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master Ricochet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Bristol, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    4,897

    Smile

    Asbestos diaper? You been eatin' Mexican?
    "A cheerful heart is good medicine."

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Meadowview, Virginia
    Posts
    528
    I just love it when you guys get into these deep technical discussions. I bring my wife in here and show her proof positive that other people are afflicted as bad or worse than me.

    Awesome show, keep it up.

    Keith

  18. #18
    Banned

    44man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    22,705
    I wonder how the average pressure, pressure rise, average area under the pressure, average rise under the pressure, actual pressure curve and peak pressure was measured? Is this from published data?

  19. #19
    Banned

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    28,088
    it would seem to me that if boolit deformation is causing the better b.c
    that by switching to lino will bear that out.
    or point in its direction.
    hate to say it but the "better" boolit may not be

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    21,326
    Quote Originally Posted by 44man View Post
    I wonder how the average pressure, pressure rise, average area under the pressure, average rise under the pressure, actual pressure curve and peak pressure was measured? Is this from published data?
    44man

    This is not from "published data". The average pressure, pressure rise, average area under the pressure, average rise under the pressure, actual pressure curve and peak pressure was measured by the M43. There is a strain gauge attached to the barrel over the chamber.

    Attached photo shows it on the M98 Palma. It is firmly attached and to remove it would be to destroy it by scraping it off. On the Palma rifle and a couple others I have it mounted on top as the gauge showing doesn't matter. On rifle I don’t want the gauge to show it is attached on the bottom of the barrel and hidden by the stock. The wires to the gauge are readily attached and unattached on those rifles.

    Also attached is the print out of the data recorded for the 32 gr load of H4895 as tested in the M70. I compute and write the RPM (rounded to nearest 100 RPM) in the “Summery Column”. I use the average velocity as measured by the muzzle screens. I suppose I could use the computed muzzle velocity but since I am consistent and round off the few fps difference doesn’t matter. I also write the size of the group under the actual pressure curve. In my record book I normal cut out the group from the target and paste it here for record. In this case I am keeping all the targets with the records of this test in a separate hard copy binder.

    Note on the actual pressure curve the little dog leg as the pressure begins to rise; this is consistent with all cast bullet loads tested so far. It is not consistent and most often not present on jacketed bullet tests. I believe this is showing the entry of the bullet into the rifling. Once the cast bullet is engraved the pressure rise slows a bit then continues its rise. I will query Dr. Oehler on this.

    Larry Gibson
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 10-22-2008 at 11:36 AM.

Page 1 of 34 1234567891011 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check