Alternate powders to reduce muzzle blast in a mosin

[Tackleberry41]

Mosins are well known for the muzzle blast in the shorter barreled guns. I have one cut back to 17in, only been shooting cast subsonic out of it, so muzzle blast isnt really an issue.

But was looking at full powered loads, run them thru a can, but try to knock back some of that blast that has to be contained. Perhaps a faster powder? Alternative load data? Will be using J words in it. Might make up some full powered cast, but would like to push them a little harder. Get some more range out of it, like the 174gr match.

[petroid]

Try Ed Harris' "The Load"
Start at 15-16gr Alliant 2400 and work up to 20 or a little more. Makes a nice plinker on the low end and great mild hunting load on the high end. Find what is accurate for you. I like the Lee C312-185 1R with 15gr 2400. About 1500fps, 1" at 50yds. and mild recoil and blast. I haven't played with it too much but my accuracy is best at the low end.

[Outpost75]

I use this one in my Finn M39, as-cast and unsized, lubed with 45-45-10 with 11 grs. of #2400. Good for use with a can.
Attachment 149044

[JeffinNZ]

Well, you've given yourself a challenge by loping off the barrel. Muzzle blast is directly proportional to muzzle pressure. The higher the pressure at the muzzle the more blast. To reduce the blast you need a faster powder that peaks then drops of the pressure curve before the bullet exits. 17 inches in a .31cal is rather brief so you will be stuck with powders probably no slower than the likes of Reloader 7 I would think. That's going to limit your velocity also.

[Tackleberry41]

Oh I expect to lose velocity. Actually found a good write up on the mosin and cutting the barrel.

http://honors.usf.edu/documents/Thesis/U82488180.pdf

Found data on IMR4198 in a 308 up to 180gr, and might have found a use for the reloader 7 I had bought. Might break down and get Quick load, since it will give you info like the muzzle pressure and volume.

[Larry Gibson]

Mosins are well known for the muzzle blast in the shorter barreled guns. I have one cut back to 17in, only been shooting cast subsonic out of it, so muzzle blast isnt really an issue.

But was looking at full powered loads, run them thru a can, but try to knock back some of that blast that has to be contained. Perhaps a faster powder? Alternative load data? Will be using J words in it. Might make up some full powered cast, but would like to push them a little harder. Get some more range out of it, like the 174gr match.

I did quite a bit of load development for an 18" barreled .308W. Only way to get more range out of it is with full powered loads using standard powders for the cartridge. They generally still give the highest velocity in short barrels vs faster than normal for the cartridge burning powders.

JeffinNZ's post nailed it.

Larry Gibson

[pretzelxx]

You put a can on a 17 inch Mosin? Pictures please! Sorry for not being useful, but wow.

[Tackleberry41]

I really doubt the length of the barrel has much bearing on IF a can is possible. You can cut threads on the full length barrel, or if its 2" in front of the chamber. I threaded both mine playing with the lathe, odd a 'thread protector' is $20 or more, while flash hider(thread protector) is $7. Had issues with the one, as its a war time rifle, not much is straight on it. Took a whole lot of adjusting, it looked like it was wobbling, but was true to the bore. I picked 17" as well its still legal, and left me some room if I screwed it up.

Have a real nice subsonic load that works, 200gr NOE that comes out to around 218gr, sort thru them for the perfect ones. Sized to .314. Had to make an expander to use them, as Lee sends a .308 w the dies, you can buy a .311, so bought an 8mm and cut to size. 8gr of solo 1000 gets right about 1040fps. Wouldn't think w pistol powder a longer barrel would make much difference, but my full length 91/30 bumps them up where their at the edge or over depending on the weather.

Had planned to load some today, to test, then school called come get my son with a fever. End of the day as far as thats concerned. Found this yesterday. http://www.reloadersnest.com/detail....98&LoadID=7372 for a 308, but not a whole lot different from a mosin in the book.

[Tackleberry41]

Shiny bit on the end is a thread protector I made from a chunk of stainless 40cal barrel.

[Motor]

This is a twist. I once saw a thread where a guy wanted to get as muzzle flame as possible.

I think the only way to tame your muzzle flash and shoot normal velocity j-word bullets is to go with the fastest burn rate powder that you can find data for. If you do some deeper research you may even find one that is know to produce less flash than others too.

Motor

[GhostHawk]

I agree with Motor. Those are not going to be the fastest rounds, but they should reduce the blast.

I would start in the 4-13 grains of Red Dot area then work slower.

Ed Harris promoted the 13 grains of Red Dot aka "The Load".

[Motor]

I think he wants full power loads or at least as close to full power as he can get with that short barrel.

Motor

[Tackleberry41]

Yea what I was aiming for, close to full powered. Flatten out the trajectory for longer range. Going to try some 4198 loads, found data in older books I have. And will try some of the heavier loads from Lyman manual. See how it does.

[leadman]

I shoot a 243 Win. in a 16" Encore barrel with jacketed and a muzzle brake. H4350 has a huge blast and fireball. I had just bought some Alliant Reloder 17 and tried it and it made a huge difference in the blast and fireball at slightly increased velocities. The velocity of my load is over 3,000 fps with a 90gr Nosler Accubond with very good accuracy.
So try a different powder as it might change things for you also.

[Tackleberry41]

Gonna load some up, shoot em this weekend. Try some IMR4198, some reloader 7, and some more traditional loads out of the book. Tho seems the top contender for 7.62x54r in the Lee manual is H4350, its pretty far up the burn rate chart. 4895, might be a better choice in a short barrel to try. See if I can find some loads for the faster stuff I have on the shelf like Benchmark.

[leadman]

I used to use 4198 in my Contender in 444 Marlin. Worked well with little flash and moderate blast.

[Tackleberry41]

Finally got to shoot them this weekend. 4198 had noticeably less muzzle blast than a factory load. 36.5gr of 4198 gave 2231-2241fps w a .311 150gr jacketed spitzer. 34.5gr of 4198 launched 174gr match at 2079-2139. Both very accurate. RE7 did not do so good, obvious pressure signs, doubt I will use those 3 cases again. Didn't try the 174gr loads, will just pull em.

Had some of the Lee 230gr bullets to try. Given to a friend for his 300AAC, he pretty much refuses to use cast. Figured I would try them see if it was worth buying a mold. But whoever cast em is not going to get great results. Maybe a dozen out of almost 100 actually weighted 230gr. Most were 15-20gr light. They had been gas checked, but they went right thru a .309 sizer with little effort. I fired 6, just to see how they did, now I get to clean all the lead out of the barrel. Rest of them I melted down, make some decent bullets out of them.

[Hamish]

Tac,

Are you talking muzzle "flash" or "pressure wave" or both?

Your question got me thinking about how you define muzzle blast to start with. (I sure wish Felix was here, rest his soul.). And my initial thought was the fact that ml spec powders have flash suppressants, so I went looking.

Now, 7383, if I'm not mistaken, was specifically designed to be low flash because it was used in the .50 Spotter cartridge. (This is not .50BMG, the Spotter round isshorter.). I am unsure of its "pressure wave" characteristics.

WC844 and WC846 get quoted a lot around the forums as low flash, but unless you've already got it, it's apparently unobtanium.

Speaking of "muzzle blast", in the pressure wave and noise aspects, a few years ago I fooled around with dryer lint as a filler in a 91/30 MN. The report was somewha akin to what you hear in the movies when the bad guy shoots a canned pistol jammed into a pillow, kind of a mellow "thoop" sound. But the cloud of blue fuzz floating in the area was a little distracting,,,,,,,. (I quit that line of experimentation short when I found a " horse pill" of melted lint inside a case where the powder had apparently burned around it instead of pushing it out.)

For sheer pressure wave aspects, the standard answer of shooting a fast enough powder to get the burn done internally applies, but I'm not seeing much thought discussed on using load data that that has low pressure to start with.

In a 12" Contender with heavy for caliber LFN in .357, I discovered the hard way how much harsher the recoil pulse/blast/noise was between 2400 and 296. I could shoot 2400 almost 300fps faster with better accuracy and not near the ear ringing jarring blast.

I will say this, I can't speak to jacketed, but with lead bullets, the load with the low(er/est) muzzle pressure is almost invariably the most accurate, and almost invariably the more pleasant to shoot. Get the muzzle pressure down and you get the muzzle blast down,,,,,,,,.

Found this in a quick search, popular powders quoted: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/36...flash____.html

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Mosins are well known for the muzzle blast in the shorter barreled guns. I have one cut back to 17in, only been shooting cast subsonic out of it, so muzzle blast isnt really an issue.

But was looking at full powered loads, run them thru a can, but try to knock back some of that blast that has to be contained. Perhaps a faster powder? Alternative load data? Will be using J words in it. Might make up some full powered cast, but would like to push them a little harder. Get some more range out of it, like the 174gr match.

Tac,

Are you talking muzzle "flash" or "pressure wave" or both?

Your question got me thinking about how you define muzzle blast to start with. (I sure wish Felix was here, rest his soul.). And my initial thought was the fact that ml spec powders have flash suppressants, so I went looking.

Now, 7383, if I'm not mistaken, was specifically designed to be low flash because it was used in the .50 Spotter cartridge. (This is not .50BMG, it's shorter.). I am unsure of its "pressure wave" characteristics.

WC844 and WC846 get quoted a lot around the forums as low flash, but unless you've already got it, it's apparently unobtanium.

Speaking of "muzzle blast", in the pressure wave and noise aspects, a few years ago I fooled around with dryer lint as a filler in a 91/30 MN. The report was somewha akin to what you hear in the movies when the bad guy shoots a canned pistol jammed into a pillow, kind of a mellow "thoop" sound. But the cloud of blue fuzz floating in the area was a little distracting,,,,,,,. (I quit that line of experimentation short when I found a " horse pill" of melted lint inside a case where the powder had apparently burned around it instead of pushing it out.)

For sheer pressure wave aspects, the standard answer of shooting a fast enough powder to get the burn done internally applies, but I'm not seeing much thought discussed on using load data that that has low pressure to start with.

In a 12" Contender with heavy for caliber LFN in .357, I discovered the hard way how much harsher the recoil pulse/blast/noise was between 2400 and 296. I could shoot 2400 almost 300fps faster with better accuracy and not near the ear ringing jarring blast.

I will say this, I can't speak to jacketed, but with lead bullets, the load with the low(er/est) muzzle pressure is almost invariably the most accurate, and almost invariably the more pleasant to shoot. Get the muzzle pressure down and you get the muzzle blast down,,,,,,,,.

Found this in a quick search, popular powders quoted: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/36...flash____.html

Tackleberry41,
I have IMR7383 as well as WC844 and WC846.
if you were nearby, I'd glad share some with you.
I've been reading about IMR7383 and I think that might be the ticket for you...especially when reading about Bullshop's experience with it in 308.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post2782384

[Tackleberry41]

Usually its an issue of what can be bought, and ending up with a shelf full of powders we don't use. We all do it, go buy a powder to try, find the results arent that great, then gotta figure out what to do with it. The 4198 did very well, very common, and I have plenty, works great w my cast 308 loads for my CETME. Grouped very well w 150gr and 174gr, especially for an old clunker. The R7 was terrible, found data to use, but the groups were really bad. Bought the R7 to use in some 45 colt loads, but just didn't get the results I was hoping for, and really only works w lighter bullets in 223 or 308. So guess I will find a use for it eventually. Have a 45-70, but again, really don't shoot light bullets in it.

I was aiming for less muzzle pressure for a can. Not sure about the flash, but the report from a traditional 4895 load was louder than for 4198, w same velocity for the 2. I have to clean out all the lead from the barrel before I can shoot it again. 6 of those lee 230 gr and I was scrapping chunks off the freshly crowned muzzle. I doubt much of the bullets actually made it down range.