Drill Rod Question

[EMC45]

I am on the McMaster Carr site and was curious about what drill rod would be better for dies, W1 Water quench, or O1 Oil quench? There is a few dollar difference in ft pricing, so no big deal. Me and Lumpie talked about this over the phone one night and I kinda forgot what he had told me.

[JSnover]

I'm sure someone here has a better answer but as I remember, they're almost interchangeable. Water-quenching will produce a higher hardness (for cutting tools, let's say) while oil-quenching will produce a tougher part; still very hard, but less likely to crack or break so you may not need to stress-relieve afterwards. For max hardness with the simpler (less expensive steels), get the one with the higher carbon content.

[bohica2xo]

The quenching medium has a lot to do with the distortion you are likely to see after heat treatment.

Water hardening steels see a hell of a shock during quenching, and distort the most.

Oil hardening steels distort less, but must be quenched in the right oil @ the specified temperature.

Air Hardening steels have the lowest distortion, and are quenched with an air blast (not by just letting them cool!).

Any steel must be tempered immediately after quenching for best stability. Using a tool steel "as quenched" usually ends in disaster. Dies should be drawn back to the 54~60 Rc range, or a bit less.

How do you plan to heat treat your parts? Are you sending them to a commercial heat treater?

B.

[lathesmith]

I believe also that as you progress from W-1, to O-1, to A-1 (air hardened), you get less dimensional variation when the part is heat-treated. I am sure the difference is pretty minor, but on larger parts with close tolerances it could be a factor. You probably won't notice much change on a part as small as a sizer; if you don't harden it you probably can't tell any difference at all.
I would like to get set up here to make these dies to within .001 or .002, harden them, and then get final dimensions via grinding. This would be the most accurate of all, and you would get the best of both worlds--hardened and accurate. For this I think I would prefer O-1 or A-1 steel.
lathesmith
lathesmith

[bohica2xo]

Water hardening steels can distort on parts as small as a reloading die, especially if quenched badly (water too cold, too slow etc.) - the usual result is an oval hole.

Most die shops prefer A2 or D2 for complex dies.

If you are using a commercial heat treater you can save some money by using E52100 steel for your work. This material is great for this kind of work, it is normally used to make bearings.

No die should be heat treated at finish dimension. Some scale always forms on the surface, diameters shift slightly, etc. .002 to .005 cleanup on most steels is a good place to start.


B.

[JIMinPHX]

So far, I’ve cut all my dies out of pre heat-treated material. I have caught wind of some rumors that other people have had good luck from making them out of drill rod & just leaving them in their natural annealed state. Lead really isn’t that hard or abrasive compared to drill rod so it makes sense to me.

[bohica2xo]

That would depend on what kind of die you are making.

If you are making something like a lubri-sizer die, then P20 steel would be great. If you are making a case sizing die, it will not work out so well.

Some forming operations require hardened steel to keep from bulging the die, or to keep the punch stiff enough.

It all depends on the application. I am a tool & die maker by trade, and when you say "die" I generally think of sizing / forming / swaging in the firearm world.

B.

[EMC45]

WOW!!! A can of worms has been opened. Keep the advice coming!

[BABore]

I make all my lubrisizer and push through dies from O-1 accuracy round. I don't HT them nor think it's necessary for lead boolit sizing. I did make a few and HT'd them before finishing. A royal PITA trying to hone out a few thou. They will usually egg a bit on you too.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Besides normal gun parts such as firing pins and flat springs, that required heat treating, I've made several case forming dies. These included both drawing and swaging dies, to lengthen cases, such as .45-70 to .45-90,(Before this brass was available) and to swage down head diameters such as .348Win.(.546') to form 10.4x47R Vetterli-Vitali (.538"). I've been using D-2 air hardening (Uddeholm Sverka 21), which I became familiar with when making custom sheath knives, rather than O-1 or W-1 which I use for springs, firing pins, etc..
This steel remains tough even without tempering. For dies, I harden at 1860º F. with the part wrapped in a high titanium stainless heat treating foil to prevent decarburizing(scale), and without tempering, finish to spec. on the lathe with my tool post grinder.
I also no longer temper the steel parts that require tempering, using only oil, or by color. I use my casting furnace and RCBS thermometer, dipping the part in the molten lead. This allows me to more accurately control the temperature.

Morgan

[badgeredd]

Here is another possible alternative for you to consider for sizing dies. For those of us that don't have heat treating available or who don't wish to add the time/expense for it, I have used pre-hard stainless steel. It is a bit harder to work with because of its toughness, but it it can be lapped out to size reasonably easily and polished to a super smooth surface. Of course it is a more expensive steel but I feel it is worth it for my application. BTW we have used it quite a bit in injection molding molds and it seems to be fairly resistant to abrasion from some of the plastic resins that are middle of the road in abrasive characteristics. My $.02 worth.

[lathesmith]

This post has some good info from a large cross-section of hands-on guys. I think for my Star sizing dies, after reading some of these posts, I will use O-1 or W-1 and forget about hardening. My slugs are barely sized anyhow, maybe .002 at the most, so the die is mostly a luber. Under these conditions plain ol' drill rod ought to last a good long time. Now for case forming and sizers, that is a different matter. More contemplation is needed here...
lathesmith

[georgeld]

I've used plain old hot rolled, and both A &O 1. With about the same results.
Main thing you've got to do a really good job of polishing the bores. Otherwise they'll rub lead off, or crush cases when forming.

I made a full set of neck sizer bushing for a Lee die to neck down brass. Just because I was making them at the time and wanted a full set. All the way from half inch down to .161" ID's by .010" and .020". Smaller size's are smaller steps. The only problem I've had with them was not getting the bore polished good enough. Crushed quite a few case necks before I got the message figured out right. After that, they've been easy to use.

Just for the fun of it one night I necked down an '06 case to about an inch from the head to .224". Funny looking thing that long, then I got careless and didn't get enough lube on it and crushed it. Never had the patience and enough boredom to do another one yet. May some day.

Do you have access to sucker rod from oil wells? That's great steel. Anneal it, turn it, then get it pink thruout and quench in water and it's hard enough you can't touch it with a new file. The redder it is when quenched, the harder and more brittle it is so be careful of your heat.
I make lots of punch's and chisels with this stuff all the time. Even harden the heads so they wont' bell over. That's got to be barely pink, just enough color to see in a fairly dark room. Too hard and they'll shatter and you'll end up eating slivers. Ask me how I liked that one stuck in my brisket that day!!

They will dimple the face of your hammer though, so be prepared for that. Some I've made have drilled over 2feet thru concrete foundations and never needed a touch up of the cutting edge. They won't quite dimple the face of a rail, or anvil, but, they'll come close. They WILL cut groove's in the face of a file so don't be shocked to see that sometime. Use a grinder, not a file and avoid that one.

[bohica2xo]

Morgan:

You really should temper D2 parts, immediately after heat treating. As quenched, D2 will hold 62~63 Rc. If you temper @ 400f for one hour the hardness is 61 Rc. I will not finish grind a D2 part until it has been tempered twice. D2 becomes much more stable if double tempered at 400f. If you temper @ 550f, it will still hold 59 Rc, which is hard enough for any cutting job.

I mentioned P20 steel. P20 is pre-hardened mold steel, used extensively in the injection molding business. Usually delivered around 300 Bhn, it can be machined with HSS tools, and polishes well. For something like a lubri-sizer die it would be great. P20 Mold steel specs


Lathesmith:

For case forming dies, you could use P20, then have it nitrided after you polish & test the die. Salt Bath Nitriding will take the P20 past 60 Rc which is hard enough to last for decades of use. Distortion is not an issue with this process, and the finish is slicker than hard chrome.

For things like punches, E52100 steel is always predictable - and cheaper. Things like top punches for bullet sizing can be made & used as is. 52100 can be hardened to 60 Rc if needed by taking it to 1500f before an oil quench - and following up with a 425f tempering for an hour.


George:

Sucker rod tends to be either 4142, or 4330. Both are decent carbon steels. You should be careful heat treating those materials, they can become (cough) very brittle... Tools like punches should be drawn back some after heat treatment, and the striking face (head) should always be soft enough to deform a bit. Better to grind back a bit of a mushroom occasionally - than to make a trip to the emergency room.

B.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Bohica2xo I didn't mean to infer that I normally don't temper D-2, or any other tool steel. I always temper D-2 where required. I just don't for parts such as forming dies or other parts that aren't subject to shock, where a super hard surface is beneficial. For this, in my opinion, D-2 is useful due to it's toughness.
To illustrate,
I've made a few lightweight D-2 replacement hammers, of my own design, for Ruger #1/3's to speed up the lock time. These have a thinned web, bringing the bulk of the mass to the periphery. In testing, I omitted tempering in some of these, and found that the as-hardened RC 62-64, gave a superior glass hard sear notch, compared to tempering down to RC59-61. I only mention this, because after almost twenty years, no problems have arisen in any of the rifles fitted with these, dispite the impact of the hammer with the firing pin and breechblock.

I've also, ground prick and center punches out of the scrap left over from countour sawing parts out of D-2 ground plate, and after wrapping in foil, thrown them in the furnace with job parts. Never tempered them, or had them chip, or need to be resharpened. Great give-aways to my friends. Wouldn't try that with other steels.

Just my experiences with this steel, others may differ.

BTW, Attempting to buy American, we tried Carpenter and a few other domestic brands of D-2, and found Swedish Uddeholm Sverker 21 to be superior, in absence of impurities, to all others. This was thirty years ago, things may have changed.
Morgan

[georgeld]

bohica:

Not to be a smart ass, or know it all.

But, I've been using this sucker rod since about 1958 or so.
Several hundred chisels, rock drills, center punch's and many other items I've made with it.

Only had ONE chisel break the edge off, and ONE head shattered that stuck a long thin HOT sliver in the middle of my brisket. You bet, it could have been the eye's. But, wasn't. That got my attention.

I've learned from doing and making these things about the tempering and get along just great with it because I pay attention to the colors. These tools seldom ever need to have the cutting edge's touched up. They'll hold a sharp enough edge to cut slices off hot rolled steel for a long time, and drill over two feet thru concrete and still have a decent cutting edge.

Except the one time, I've never had one mushroom, nor split the head either. They will dimple a hammer face though.

For someone doing it in his own shop that's limited to a torch and welding tools. This is about as good as it will ever get. There's no heat treating outfit around these parts. Nothing is that important either. so jsut make 'em and live with it. When they last like they do after I make them. There's not much better that can be bought anywhere.

Wish you well,

[Lumpie]

As I told you in our telephone conversation, O1 is the steel to make dies from. It has the right properties for the finished product. W1 is intended for projects that do not need the type of heat treatment O1 does. They are simular in some respects, and differ in metallurgical contents. Carbon content, is a large factor. O1 has the ability to not only be tuff, but hard in the wear surfaces. It does not distort as much in heat treatments aplications as W1. O1 does not lend to be as brittle, as W1 in this aplication. Lumpie

[TCLouis]

Are we talking Sucker Rod like that from a wind mill?

Or, are we talking Sucker Rod from oil well?

Or, are they the same?

Ignorant folks want to know!

[Lumpie]

Sucker rod is an early aplication of carbon steel. Some were as good, if not better than some tool steels are today. Then they tried to make a product that would last. Not the American way now! Steel companies, are like Doctors. They want to keep you comming back! Lumpie

[bohica2xo]

Morgan:

Uddeholm still makes fantastic stuff, just as nice as they ever did. Some steel re-sellers will ship damn near anything marked as O1 or A2 - I got a piece that was marked "Made in Macedonia" inside the paper once. Not a common issue with D2.
Crucible has really cleaned up things, now their product is as clean as it should be. If you are looking for things like M42 or CPM, Crucible is a good choice.

Carpenter does a good job on stainless, but as you know they don't do as well on some other things...

Prick punches do not see the beating that other tools see, so I am not surprised you have not had any trouble. Since the Ruger hammer has all of the mass in the striking face I doubt you will see one break either.

D2 is my favorite material for tough parts, and in some cases it can be used glass hard. I tell people not to use D2 glass hard because of many years of die experience. When a 50 ton punch press smacks a die & the pieces go flying it gets exciting.


George:

What works for you with 50 years of experience is great - for you. Someone with a different idea of "pink" for a heat treating color could easily injure himself. That learning curve can be painful as you already know. My cautions were not meant to denigrate the tools you have made, but to warn anyone else who might want to duplicate your efforts...

You are still drilling concrete with a star drill?




TC Louis:

Sucker rod from an oil well is what we are discussing. Windmill (aeromotor) sucker rods can be most anything, in fact newer ones are fiberglass.


B.