45/410 Contender = 11.4x74R Wildcat

[MikeP]

I have found what I consider to be the ideal brass to use in the very long 45/410 Contender chamber: the old European metric round introduced in 1900 and still somewhat popular over there in doubles and single shot rifles, the 9.3x74R. These cases are available in the US from Norma and RWS. I got my Norma cases from Midway, and at about a dollar a pop, they are not cheap. However, they are the best solution I’ve found in the long 45/410 chamber, and I’m betting the cases will last for many reloadings based on my preliminary testing results.

I roughly measured my 45/410 chamber and found it is a very long 83mm. It is generously sized to fit the long 3-inch 410 shotgun shell. Since the 45 Colt case is only 32.6 mm in length, you can see the bullet would have to pole-vault over to the rifling to exit the barrel. Not good for accuracy, especially with cast lead bullets, as many have reported.

My next step was to use the .444 Marlin case, which is a respectable 56.5 mm long. Necking up the 444 to 45 creates a 45/444 wildcat round, sometimes called the 450 Mongo. Even though the accuracy of this combination was very much better than the 45 Colt, there was still a long gap between bullet and rifling because of my long 83mm chamber. Also, occasionally the rim of the .444 will get behind the Contender’s extractor, requiring some hassle to get it out of the barrel after firing. This is not much of a problem at the firing range (I use an unsharpened wooden lead pencil to push the brass out), but in the field where a quick second shot may be needed (gasp!), this procedure is not too appealing to say the least.

As the ultimate answer to shooting bullets accurately and reliably in the 45/410 Contender, I have concluded the old 9.3x74R case to be it. This brass is 74.7 mm long, thus allowing the bullet, especially heavy ones, to essentially extend to the rifling, which is always good for accuracy. This is especially true of cast bullets like I prefer, because cast bullets don’t like Weatherby-type freeboring where the bullet accelerates in the rifling-free bore (chamber) and hits the rifling at high speed, thus causing the relatively soft lead bullets to strip in the bore. It’s much better to use jacketed bullets in such applications.

To adapt the 9.3x74R case for my cast lead bullets, I first annealed the necks in hot lead to help the brass accommodate opening up from 37 caliber to 45. I then loaded the cases with 200-grain cast lead bullets used in my .357. These bullets fit in the unaltered neck finger-tight, which was enough to develop the pressure needed for forming cases. I used 15 grains of Lil Gun to form the cases. The unaltered, new parent case fit into my Contender’s chamber perfectly. When fired, the case mouth opened up to almost the .45 size needed, and the front end of the brass was kind of wavy due to the parent case’s original shape. To open the mouth up to .45 for reloading, I put a little case lube on a long Craftsman 6mm socket with a quarter-inch drive, which has a shank which measures right at .45 inch. I used an arbor press to ease the socket in for sizing, and a pair of pliers to remove it. I then used the normal .45 reloading tool to bell the mouth to prevent damaging the base of the bullet or the case when reloading. I crimped the neck lightly after loading.

I use polyester filling, rolled up so that the length and breadth of the empty space in the case between powder and bullet are occupied, thus making the round insensitive to position when shooting.

I won’t cite my Lil Gun loads for what now is the metric equivalent of a 11.4 x 74R wildcat. I think this gun can be loaded to reliably kill anything on the North American continent. I use a 332-grain Lyman cast bullet, and I will say the gun and cartridge combination is awesome in every sense. With this cartridge, all of the freebore in the long Contender chamber is taken up with a cartridge the size of a cigar.

When you consider that the Contender 45/410 will also shoot full-length 3-inch 410 loads, a more versatile survival weapon does not exist.

As with any wildcatting experimentation, use extreme caution if you decide to create an 11.4x74R in the Contender. Like any wildcat development, you are blazing a new path which can be dangerous.

I’ll be using my 11.4x74R to go after hogs and deer this year. If we had a bear season, I’d use this gun for that too. If I get bored, I can screw in the 410 choke and kill a quail or squirrel for the pot. For such a compact gun in the field, it just doesn’t get any better than that.

[No_1]

To adapt the 9.3x74R case for my cast lead bullets, I first annealed the necks in hot lead to help the brass accommodate opening up from 37 caliber to 45. I then loaded the cases with 200-grain cast lead bullets used in my .357. These bullets fit in the unaltered neck finger-tight, which was enough to develop the pressure needed for forming cases. I used 15 grains of Lil Gun to form the cases. The unaltered, new parent case fit into my Contender’s chamber perfectly. When fired, the case mouth opened up to almost the .45 size needed, and the front end of the brass was kind of wavy due to the parent case’s original shape. To open the mouth up to .45 for reloading, I put a little case lube on a long Craftsman 6mm socket with a quarter-inch drive, which has a shank which measures right at .45 inch. I used an arbor press to ease the socket in for sizing, and a pair of pliers to remove it. I then used the normal .45 reloading tool to bell the mouth to prevent damaging the base of the bullet or the case when reloading. I crimped the neck lightly after loading.

Do you happen to have before and after pics of this creation?

Thanks,
Robert

[MikeP]

No, I don't, Robert. Sorry.

The parent cartridge looks like a long 30-06 with a rim. After first firing/fireforming, it looked like it's got a head on it, since the mouth of the cartridge is expanded to near .45 for maybe an inch or so while the rest of the body retains its original dimension, ie, somewhat more narrow. The subsequent firings bring this expanded portion farther down the body, making it look like a snake trying to swallow something. I haven't shot my cases enough to tell how rapidly or how far this expansion will go; I think it will depend on pressures and repetition. I have found, however, that once the front of the cartridge is expanded by initial firings, the bullet is held in exact alignment with the rifling for fine accuracy, which is the goal of my exercise.

[Buckshot]

.............Mike, that's a really neat deal you've created there. And good out of the box thinking too! Too bad the Mag Tech 410 brass hulls are only 2.5" long. They're like $12/25 or so. Out of curiosity what kind of load are you using in that thing? Bet you get some looks when you break the breech and slide that long panatella length cartridge in the breech!

You ever thought about using BP in it? You're gonna have'ta make yourself a shell belt so you can slide about 10 of those dudes through the loops. We really DO need pictures of a loaded round! If you can send me a jpeg photo I can get it posted here.

Again a really neat creation. Has sititng in front of the tube all beat to heck, doesn't it?

..............Buckshot

[Wayne Smith]

From COTW #10, p.426

"10.3x65Rmm Baenzinger

This was at one time a popular European target cartridge, particularly in Switzerland. It is now obsolete, but the Swiss manufactured it until the end of World War II. Swiss Martini-action single-shot rifles were made for the 10.3x65Rmm. This cartridge is actually the brass 2.5-inch 410 (10.35 or 36-gague) shotgun shell loaded with a lead softpoint bullet. However, the rim is a bit thicker than the average 410 shotshell. DWM case No. 164 is listed in the 1904 catalog under schrotfliten, or shotguns. Ammunition can be made from brass 410 cases, although the rim usually has to be built up to the proper thickness. A brass washer is the easiest solution to this. The equally hard-to-find 405 Winchester case can also be used if trimmed to the right length and the rim turned down. New brass cases from Bertram Bullet Company are being imported by Huntington. Lyman #412263 (290 gr) cast bullets can be sized and used. Power is about the same sa the 44 Magnum revolver cartridge fired in a rifle, soit would make a fairly satisfactory short-range deer number.

There is also a 10.3x65Rmm Swiss target (old DWM case No. 237A) that is practically identical to the above except for a thin rim. This one has been obsolete for a good many years. Cases are currently made by Bartram Bullet Company."

There really is nothing new under the sun!

[rockrat]

You could probably use a 405 win. basic brass which is, I think, about 82mm long. rim might be a little too thick, but I have some and will try it out. also have some 9.3 x 74r for my double rifle, so will try it out also. have one of the survival NEF guns, so a bit more horsepower sounds interesting.

[Wayne Smith]

And 405 Win. brass is readily available from Hornaday. I'm at the office and can't measure mine. I can post later (tomorrow?) the length of a 405 case when I get home and measure one.

[Wayne Smith]

.405 Win brass dimensions:

Base .461

Rim diam. .543

Rim thick. .075

Length 2.58"

Hope this helps.

[MikeP]

It appears the .405 is shorter than desirable, at 2.58 inches, since the 9.3x74R is 2.94 inches long. In the Contender 45/410 chamber, size does matter.

[lar45]

How is the accuracy with the long cases?
I just picked up an older Octagon 45 colt TC bbl. It was listed as 45 colt only, but it was reamed out to take the 410 shells They said they would take it back, but if it can be made to shoot??
What do you use to size, seat and crimp? I'm thinking that maybe the 460 S&W size die might work. My 45 colt size die won't size the whole 444 case.

[Buckshot]

[MikeP]

Hey, Buckshot, thanks for posting the pictures for me, especially at 1:33 in the morning. Wow...what dedication to the casting community! You da man!

Lar45, sorry it took so long to get to your questions. I hadn't looked at the old post lately.

Relative to accuracy, I'm still testing various boolits. Since I don't bench-test any of my loads (I use my unrested, seated hunting position to test my field shooting and my loads at the same time, which isn't as precise as from a bench but allows me to get some field-type practice in at the same time, since deer season starts in a couple of weeks around here.) Having said that, the last time I shot, using my 332-grain soft-cast (8 to 9 BHN) Lymans, I was getting around an inch at 20 and 25 yards, using a Leupold 2X. I've still got some testing to do in the next couple of weeks before live-fire executions in the woods, but I'm very pleased with the results so far. One thing I have found, which I don't remember anyone saying is a problem for them, is the fact that I was getting some occasional yaw, even a keyhole or two, from the use of too much polyester filler. At first I thought that maybe my twist was too slow for the heavy boolits, but I didn't see how that could be because you would think all of the heavy boolits would yaw, which they weren't. Then, I measured the twist and found it was 1 - 18, which should be quite good for heavy boolits in the .45. After thinking about it for a while, I realized that I was probably using too much polyester to fill the largely unused powder space, allowing the polyester to bunch up on the base of the boolit in an uneven manner, thus leading to an undesired "push" when leaving the barrel and the resulting yaw, similar to what you can observe when a race car is hit in the rear and goes sideways. Sure enough, I quit the polyester, and the yaw/keyholes disappeared. Even though this means the powder is not consistently held in place anymore, I shoot from ground blinds anyway, so the powder should essentially be horizontal on the bottom of the case for whatever consistency that yields, which seems to be very good so far.

About your questions of sizing, seating and crimping, I use a current-issue Lee .45 Colt/.45 Casull/.455 Webley sizing die in my press. I just size the case enough to hold the bullet in place, maybe a half inch, and don't go any farther down the case. Since my loads seem to be quite low pressure loads at around 1000 fps with the 332-grain boolits (all I can handle with my level of "skill" shooting heavy kickers), I am getting excellent case wear and tear, and they slip in and out of the chamber perfectly. In fact, I have now reloaded one set of cases 10 times so far without any sign of wear except for the fact that the case has expanded to .45 caliber to fit the chamber. At this rate, the cases should last many more firings, which should totally make up for the cost of this quality Norma brass. Since I was seeking increased accuracy in the first place, which I have clearly achieved, I'm a happy camper. If I ever want to ramp-up the pressure and energy, the big case certainly will allow that, probably up to the point of a fractured wrist.

To seat the boolit, I use a simple Lee Loader die and seating tool. I don't crimp, but if I did, I could use the same Lee Loader die for that function too.
I use a Lee hand primer to seat the primers. I have found that Lee's shellholders number 5 for his primer tool and his sizing die fit the case perfectly.

It all works out very well for me.

[BluesBear]

Since my brother is supposed to be sending my old .45/.410 Contender barrrel back to me soon, I searched back and dug this thread up.

Has there been any new research done?
I was thinking that this might be a great candidate for Trail Boss powder. Trail Boss might just yield enough load density to work fine without any filler at all.

[MikeP]

I didn't have an opportunity to use those cigar-sized cases on game last year, but I probably will use them this year. Just too many things going on last year.

I checked my shooting log and found that I am still using the same set of 20 cases that I first fireformed. I have had no case failures yet, and each has been reloaded 16 times at this point. So, the cases are certainly holding up well.

I have not tried Trail Boss. The powders I have used thus far have been Blue Dot, Lil Gun and IMR4198. The bullets I've used are 250 and 300 gr. Hornady HPXTP jacketed, and cast lead using a 332 gr Lyman mould. All have shot very well, and any of my loads would get the job done on just about any big game in the US.

These are heavy-hitting suckers, on both sides of the gun. The powders ignite quite well, burn completely, and provide fine accuracy which is far superior to the shorter cases in this long, long, long chamber.

Although I didn't use the solid bullets on game yet, I did use the barrel with a reloaded brass shotshell and the choke last year. I killed a big ole fox squirrel which came by my stand about 30 yards away. As I've said before, this is a versatile weapon!

[lar45]

Were the 45/410 barrels factory chambered for the 2.5" or 3" shell? I was wondering if yours was reamed more for the 3" shell?
I picked up a couple of boxes of the new 2.5" 410 brass that takes a large pistol primer. The old ones all used to take a Berdan primer, except the 12 ga. Now they all take the large pistol primer.
So if you have 2.5" chamber then maybe this brass might work for you.

I have one of those El-Cheapo Rexio single shot pistols in 45/410. The chamber is kind of rough, but it was only $135. I saw online they are supposed to make a scope mount for it. Anyway, I tried some 45 colt loads with the 230 BD and they shot great at 25 yards. I think the 2.5" 410 brass might be good in this gun. I will definatly keep the pressures low.
I was thinking of trail boss or 5744?
I have a couple of the FMJ derringers in 45/410. I have loaded a 340gn bullet in a 45/444 to around 500-600 fps. That definatly is interesting to shoot. I have an over under and a SxS. The over under is easy to ajust velocity to get the bullet to shoot to the sights. I haven't tried the SxS yet with heavy loads. I probably won't.

My 45 octagon barrel that was reamed out to 410 that I was supposed to send back. Well, I had it sitting next to my computer desk in the box it came in, which had lots of kraft paper bunched up for packing materials. AND
someone did me a favor of cleaning up some of my mess on garbage day when I was at a Dr. appt.
I hate it when $200 just gets thrown in the trash.

On the plus side, that Rexio does shoot the 230 BD very well. If I try heavier loads in the Rexio, the rubber forend flys off the gun. I guess it needs a washer under the screw.

Okay, now here's an interesting 45/410 idea.
Taurus is making a 5 shot revolver in their tracker series in 45/410 for the 2.5" loads! It's the model 44 ten, in blue or stainless. I wonder if they made any chamber modifications to not allow 454 or 460 ammo to fit?
I guess I might have to buy one and find out.
I have some 700gn 500 S&W bullets sitting here. I wonder what a 700 gn .452 bullet would be like from the long cylinder revolver?
Maybe it's just late and I'm tired?

[BluesBear]

The factory .45/.410 contender barrels were all 3".


The Taurus 44-Ten revolver I tried handled 3" ammo quite well and appeared to be bored straight through.

I am just waiting for someone to decapitate themselves by shooting .460S&W in a Contender or a Taurus.

I really wish T/C would make a .460 barrel for the Contender.
If I wasn't so heavy into Contender barrels already I'd switch to an Encore for just that reason.

I recently came across a number of WCC aluminum 3" .410 shells.
I think I'll try reloading them with some lead SWC just tgo see how they work.


Has anyone here tried the .444 based .45 Mongo?
Soulds like it would be almost the same as using 2½" brass shotshells.

[lar45]

Blues, did you shoot any 45 colt ammo in the Taurus? ?? Was it really heavy or awkward being so long in the cylinder?
I have a BFR in 45-70, but it's too big and heavy to think about packing around the woods just for plinking and whatever.

What pressure is the 460 loaded to? Would it be safe in a Contender? TC would probably never make a barrel because you could fire 454 Casull in it and that pressure would be too high for the contender.

Just looked at Hogdons site and they have loads listed for the 460 up to 57ksi. Say good buy to a contender barrel.

[C A Plater]

A Contender in .460 S&W would quickly look the the one in the attached photo.

[BluesBear]

The Taurus wasn't as off balance as I thought it would be.
It was actucally fun.

However the pattern with .410 #7½ shot were just too big for any practical use. #9 might work better. Too many holes in the pattern.

Accuracy with .45 Colt ammo was tolerable.
I wonder if it could be fitted for one of the ole external T/C chokes?
That would really improve shot patterns.

I'm still afraid that some bozo will drop a .454 or a .460 into one and lose an arm.


***************


Thompson Center won't even make a .454 barrel for the Contender so I know the .460 is out of the question.
But since T/C does make a .444 Marlin barrel I don't see why the .454 is such a stretch?

I like the concept if the .460 S&W Magnum but only in a Contender/Encore platform. I just don't like the X-frame revolvers.

[BluesBear]

C.A., I feel there is a story behnd that photo.

What is it?