You guys with Star sizers, riddle me this......

[Buckshot]

...............Below is a Star size die blank I made.



I quit making these things due to their 'fussiness'. In order to make them you have to setup and zero about 6 different tools. Then you have to use .875" stock in order to form the flange which only keeps the die from being pushed through the machine casting when you push a boolit through. The remainder of the die is .750" so you end up peeling off 1/8" of steel (plus that in the lube recess) for the balance of the die. In my mind it's wastefull, more expensive, and more time consuming.

Can any of you think of why an 'E' clip wouldn't do the same thing as that flange? In that way you could use .750" stock and only have to turn down the lube recess in the center. Well you'd need the groove for the 'E' clip too. Drilling, reaming or boring, and then polishing you have to do to ANY die, so no change there.

Also, it would be much simpler to drill the countersink on the aft end of the die. Currently with that flange you have to remove the 7/8" collet then get the 3/4" collet, put the die body in backwards so the flange is on the inside, install and then drill. With the 'E' clip thing all you'd have to do is flip the 3/4" body around, close the collet and drill.

I still dislike those (supposedly) 'Timed' 2 diameter lube holes too

................Buckshot

[miestro_jerry]

IO will have to try to make one of these dies in my machine shop, I need a couple of calibers or sizes that I don't want to pay for them as custom orders.

Can you post more pictures and the 411 on the ways you do things?

Thanks,

Jerry

[targetshootr]

No idea what an E clip is but it would be have to be as sturdy as the flange considering the pressure it's under when an oversize boolit makes it halfway through the die. When my first 44 GB mold came I thought I was going to ruin the sizer the boolits were so big.

[mtgrs737]

Buckshot,

The upper flange may help to seal the lube from migrating up and out around the top of the outside of the die. Having said that you might be able to cut a O-ring groove in the top full diameter portion of the die just under the E-clip groove to seal the lube back. However the bottom of the old Star dies does not have a O-ring and they very seldom leak. I would make one without the top flange and pass it around to Star users for a try, that is the best way to test something anyway. Good idea.

[monadnock#5]

First off, there's no Star luber at my house. No engineering degree on the wall either. It's not the price of the luber that puts me off, it's the price of dies and accessories that gives me pause. So I've been looking at your picture and thinking out loud.

Howse about parting the die at the juncture of the top .750 dia. and the lube relief. Thread the flanged upper portion internally. The lower portion would have to be extended and threaded to screw into the flanged upper.

The first unit would be very expensive due to the added machining steps. But you would have a univeral flange to which all other subsequent sizers could be mated.

If this is a really bad idea, please be gentle, otherwise who knows how long it will be before I crawl out from under my rock again.

[garandsrus]

Monadock,

I was going to post that you could probably use a threaded attachment for the flange also.

The die is under a pretty good amount of downward pressure, so I don't think any type of clip or clevis would be strong enough to hold it.

Buckshot - I have made exactly one Star die, on a friend's lathe. I plan to make more as I get my lathe set up.

We chucked the blank and turned the flange and entire "lower" (below the flange) portion of the die and drilled the appropriate sized hole and counter bore with one setup. After parting the die off (same setup), we simply reversed it and cut the slight taper for the opening and honed it to the final size. We never had the flange on the inside of the 3-jaw chuck.

Maybe we just didn't know any better, but it worked great

John

[HeavyMetal]

I just purchased my second Star lube sizer. This one was used but in excellent shape. It came without a die and, with no lube in it, I was able to confirm your thought on what the flange actually does, and you are correct the flange is there to keep the die from being pushed through and out the bottom!

I suspect the cir clip / e clip idea has some merit but you must remember the base of the unit is aluminum so something with a sharp edge that rocks might be a problem!

Other than that I see no reason a good C clip or Snap Ring (even better) of the right thickness won't get the job done. I will be more than happy to volenteer my press if you need it for R&D.

As for the lube holes? Since the unit injects the lube under pressure only as you are reaching the pivot point on the linkage the lube system ( at the die proper) has no pressure on or in it and will never leak like the Lymans or RCBS.

Therefore size of the holes in the die, as long as they are not to small, should not be an issue! Again lets try one and see!

[runfiverun]

hows about welding a washer type affair a d grinding down your weld
i have a hunch thats how magma does it

[HTRN]

Buckshot, machining in general is "wasteful" - all too often, half or more of the barstock winds up as chips. What are the actual dimensions, anyway? You may be able to get away with using a smaller Metric size..


HTRN

[MtGun44]

I believe you'd need something more substantial than an e-clip, altho in
that diam, it may be pretty thick, too. How about a machined flange about
1/8" thick held on by an e-clip? Or even better, how about a 0.020" tall flange
about .010" radially and slide on a 1/8" thick flange with a counterbore to
match the tiny flange and a couple of hits with a center punch to crimp it
on?

Bill

[Buckshot]

Buckshot, machining in general is "wasteful" - all too often, half or more of the barstock winds up as chips. What are the actual dimensions, anyway? You may be able to get away with using a smaller Metric size..


HTRN

................The flange is .875" and the body is .750"/.7495". I'm just not real enthused by Star dies, basicly .

One of these days I'm going to begin the design and testing of a straight through lube/size press. Hopefully I don't die of old age before it happens!

..............Buckshot

[4060MAY]

Buckshot
Don't see why the clip won't work.
On the ones I made, They almost have to be a press fit to keep the die from leaking out the bottom when using a heater. I copied the Star.

The snap ring slot can be made with a cut-off tool easily enough.

I used a tapered reamer to cut the lead, and yes, drilling the lube holes was a pain, I used a center drill, like a 000, or 00 CRS not sure. The only reason the hole is stepped is to put in lead shot to be able to select which lube holes you want.

I found using plain base bullets works best, GC bullets with a point dent the next gas check. Haven't decided if this matters yet.

[lathesmith]

Ok, after gleaning some info from these posts, here is what I come up with:
Use a snap ring instead of an e-clip; you have a more uniform surface to work with. Thanks, Heavy Metal.
Under this, have a 1/8 thick 1" washer that is bored .750, to fit the die through. You only need to make one of these, as it can be removed from the die in use and replaced on the die you want to use. Thanks, Bill.
Now, with the above setup, machine all of your Star dies from .750 stock, and just move the washer to the die you want to use, and leave a snap ring on all of the dies. A-1 or O-1 tool steel shoud be sufficient, and it is round and dimensioned to within .001--which should be good enough. This should speed up die production somewhat, and lessen material waste. It also eliminates the concerns of leakage, and gives a nice fim lip so concerns of gouging the sizer body are eliminated. It also preserves the ability to change out dies quickly and easily.
As for the body holes, I am going to experiment with just a single size, to speed up production. I would like to make a die for each bullet I cast, and so I don't need to fool with the shot. This also should speed up caliber changes somewhat--pop old die out, install new die, adjust punch, which should be known from previous use, and off you go.
Thanks for the great ideas, guys! I can't wait to crank up the lathe and rotary table!

lathesmith

[4060MAY]

lathesmith
just a thought, if you are going to put a washer under the clip, and just drill a hole for lubing, maybe a different thickness washer might give you more fine adjusting.

I know that when I change bullets, I sometimes have to go elsewhere to keep my sanity, the lube never seems to be in the right place exactly without some(lots) of fussing.

[Firebird]

I don't see why having a single diameter body hole wouldn't work fine since you are going to make the dies to fit only a single bullet design. The purpose of the double diameter holes is to make it easier to plug them with lead shot; since you won't need to plug any extra sets of holes you should be able to make them the smaller diameter without any problems.

As for re-designing the Star luber, if you put a step in the bottom of the die hole through the frame so the die could just rest on the step at the bottom, then you wouldn't need the flange at the top of the die. It would make the frame harder to machine, but the dies would be easier and most people have more dies than Star machines; so the overall effort should be less.

[lathesmith]

4060, yes you could make washers of different thicknesses, to get some variation. No problem there, you would just want to keep track of what you are using and when.
Yes, I am hoping just drilling one hole size without the step will lube OK. I don't see why it wouldn't. Also, for simplicity I may try drilling 4 holes instead of 3--this would also shorten production time, as the die would only have to be indexed once instead of twice. Lots of stuff to try here!
lathesmith

[MtGun44]

Good synthesis of the various ideas thrown around.
Should work fine. Now, make up a large batch with .200" IDs and
send them to Buckshot for final interior sizing work only.

I was kinda joking at first, but on a bit of reflection, and as
a Star owner that needs some dies, I wonder if we got a group
buy up on Star "blanks" from a CNC shop could we get a really low
price and then have them sized internally as needed? We
might get a < $5 each or so price if we ordered enough for
a CNC lathe run of substantial size, especially with lathesmith's
simplified design. Interior sizing and polishing to fit might
make them a good bit cheaper than Magma's $40 price.

Bill

[willwork4ww]

Well, if teflon tape will seal the die I see no reason an E clip shouldn't accomplish the same. Besides, any lube that leaks by just ends up as fluxing matierial for the pot. That's what I do wit h the excess lube ribbons.

[garandsrus]

I was kinda joking at first, but on a bit of reflection, and as
a Star owner that needs some dies, I wonder if we got a group
buy up on Star "blanks" from a CNC shop could we get a really low
price and then have them sized internally as needed? We
might get a < $5 each or so price if we ordered enough for
a CNC lathe run of substantial size, especially with lathesmith's
simplified design. Interior sizing and polishing to fit might
make them a good bit cheaper than Magma's $40 price.

Bill, I thought the same thing a year or so ago. I went as far as having a guy draw up a CAD drawing of the die. I have never been able to open the CAD file though, so I don't know how well he did. My thought was to put a 1/4" hole through the die as most folks would need something larger than that. I figured that a minimum order to get a decent price would be something like 1000 parts. I really have no idea though as I have never taken a part through the manufacturing cycle...

Lathesmith - The die I made has two rows of a single size hole and it works fine. The hold spacing was sent for a specific boolit.

John

[HeavyMetal]

AS far as the dies go?

I once had the oppertunity to vist the Star works in San Diego, when I bought my first Star, and realized they were making die blanks on an old Browne & Sharpe "auto" lathe.

These were the original "CNC" machine and worked off a cam arrangement to actaviate cutting tools. To set up the machine you simply installed the cams called for in the Blueprint, adjusted tooling and turned on the machine!

Once set up and operating you just feed bar stock in it and semi finished parts came out the other end!

Star then put these in stock to be finished as they were ordered.

Lots of these old style machines are still in use here in L.A. in small job shops. Can't imagine L.A. is the only city that still has these small shops in business so I will suggest that a group buy is very feasible for die blanks.

If the blanks were limited to basic size, and hole diameter and it was not required to have lube holes drilled in them I think we might be surprised how cheap these could be purchased.

WE would need a working blueprint and we would need to decide which design to use, the original or the LS redesign.

Bear in mind I have always thought the flange on the original die served two purposes: One as a stop in the sizer itself and two; as a stop in the collet on the machine used to hone the bore and finish the die interior.

I would like to hear from Buckshot on this interesting idea. He is the original starter of this thread and dealing with the "waste" was his original issue.

WE also need to keep in mind Buckshot might not be interested in having 10,000 blank Star dies staring him in the face waiting for him to get it done "yesterday"!