Cowboy loads paper patched?

[KenH]

Hello all - I'm shooting a 43 Spanish Reformato Rolling Block, and it's loaded from 900 to 1,000 FPS. My Question, is there any advantage to using PP for these light loads vs just soft lead lubed bullets? I realize the PP'd route will require a new mold for a smaller size bullet - the barrel slugs about .454" with a throat at .470" - the throat measurement is taken from a chamber cast - I think I want to do a pound cast - beleive it will be better. The throat is pretty short from end of brass to start of rifling in barrel.

Anyway - I ramble too much - is there an advantage to PP for light loads?

Thanks to all for any info or guidance,

Ken H>

[Dan Cash]

Don't think so, just the cool factor bought at a great expense of time.

[KenH]

Thanks Dan - that's sorta what I was thinking, but since I've not used PP at all, just thought I'd ask. I may try this some - it sounds interesting!! AND - maybe a good thing for my old 30-30.

Ken H>

[303Guy]

Definitely worth trying. The fun factor alone is worth the effort.

[Dan Cash]

I shoot a lot of PP in my .30s and if I ever get around to getting a moould for it, I will PP for my .35 Rem. I have pushed grease groove bullets up to 2400fps from my .30-30s with only an antimony wash but good accuracy. Paper patching a 31141 gives me better accuracy at the same velocity and a spotless barrel. For factory level velocities in high power smokeless cartridges, I am sold on paper patching. I still use grease groove bullets for black powder shooting.

[KenH]

Thanks for info - PP'ing sounds like something I WILL be trying as I get time. I'll need to make a mold for the old Rolling Block - shouldn't be too hard to make since a PP'd bullet doesn't require lube grooves - correct?

Ken H>

[303Guy]

For softer alloy boolits that would be correct. A bit harder and the boolits need to be knurled (between two files).

[KenH]

knurled (between two files).??? Explain to this simple old country boy please.

I've got some tracing paper I tried last night - wet it water, rolled around cast bullet, dried til this morning, ran thru .461 sizer and looks pretty good. I've not had a chance to shoot them yet - plan to do more rolling tonight. I'm using the Lee .357-405 mold - sure does seem to work good for a cheap mold at $21 shipped including handles!

Ken H>

[Old Coot]

Take two mill-bastard files and place the bullet on one of them. Take the other file and put it on top of the bullet. Now, roll the bullet down the bottom file using the top file with some moderate pressure. You will get a crosshatch pattern on the lead bullet. When patching with smokeless powder (progressive burning) it does not explode like black does. Therefore, the bullet does not get obdurated or bumped up to fit the bore tightly like it would with black powder. The patch needs something to grip to keep the bullet from being pushed out ahead of the paper. This is why we use grease groove bullet molds for paper patching with smokeless propellents. Brodie

[johnson1942]

you dont have to buy a new mold. buy a pushthrough resizer for 31 dollars includeing shipping from doughty enterprise for the size you need. take the bullet you have, wrap it twice with number nine paper. measure it and your resizer will be the size you gained plus 1 or 2 thousands smaller.use lead no harder that 30 to 1. use a 60 thousands wad between bullet and powder and you shouuld get the accracy you want.

[barrabruce]

Cowboy loads yeah.
Was shooting some breach seated pp30 cal loads in my 30-30 today and without lube with a small dose of fast powder just for fun.
Shot reasonably well and must have been about the speed you are looking at.
Just the lightest smear of lube on the grease groove tops.

Have fun

[KenH]

Thank ya'll for the info - I do have a couple of questions please.... and a comment.

So that's what you're talking about with the file - neat trick and would work a champ. Using very soft lead <30:1 mix is there any advantage to knurling the bullet? It'd be easy to do if there is any advantage.

I understand BP "explodes" rather than "burns" as smokeless powder does, but what about with a very fast powder like Bullseye, Greendot, or PB? (yep, I've still got some OLD Dupont PB that was in a sealed can). Will this fast burning smokeless powder help the bullet obdurate to fit the bore tightly more similar to how it would with black powder?

When making my mold for this old Reformato Rolling Block, would it be better to put grease grooves in even for paper patching? I don't think this will be too much problem. I've got a lathe and milling machine so mold work is just an excuse to use the equip {g} and it's something I wish to try. I've made a couple of bullet sizing dies and have made the reloading dies for the Reformato round.

When you say "Just the lightest smear of lube on the grease groove tops." do you mean before paper patching? OR - after PP'ing but before sizing? OR, grease as last thing before loading bullets after running thru sizing die?

Thank ya'll again for all the help and suggestions.

Ken H>

[303Guy]

I would put very shallow grooves on it. I would also make it with a shallow and short base rebate to minimise tail edge feathering. I've made molds with a base edge chamfer. That's because I can't do the shallow rebate with smooth sided nose pour base eject mold.

I would knurl the boolits if they were smooth sided even with soft alloy although I did have good success with soft alloy smooth sides and no knurling. It depends on the paper I would say and the shape of the throat.

I've had boolits expanding into the gap between the case mouth and the chamber end. That expansion occurred right where the boolit was sitting before it moved. It was a low enough velocity boolit that I could recover but I don't remember the powder, probably H4227. I've also had boolit bases riveting below the shoulder.Be careful using fast pistol powders, they can create pressure spikes that don't show up on the primer.

[KenH]

By "rebate base" do you mean a small "hollow base" type? I won't have the ability to do that either. What I am trying is a gas check groove at base to help start bullet into brass. My RB has a fairly short throat, I've checked that by lightly seating a bullet, then chamber to press bullet rest of way into case. Removing shell I can see where the rifling touch the nose of bullet, and how deep it's seated into case.

BTW, here's what I've got started. It's .430" OD with .010" grooves for lube. The last groove is where I plan for the GC'd base to be. This will be finished (I hope) to be a side cutting "cherry" - by this I mean the mold will be pre-drilled to close to diameter, then this "cherry" will be inserted to full depth, then cutting will be by moving tool to the side with compound as would be with an internal boring bar. That's my plan anyway - and you know how plans go {g}



The bit is still rough and must be finished smooth in this photo. I've now got it mounted in vise for milling half diameter way, then need to relieve all but a narrow cutting land.

Hey - isn't this all fun - and a LOTS less expensive than hanging out in bars{g}

Ken H>

[KenH]

OK, since I don't know what I'm doing, I'm going to need to take this mold thing one step at a time. I took two blocks of aluminum, chucked in 4-jawed chuck, drilled pilot hole with bit to correct depth. Then mounted "cherry" in boring bar holder. Trying to cut to correct diameter with lube grooves is tough - have to back tool out to clear aluminum chips, then back to cut more - very hard to get exact depth so lube grooves line up. I think best might be to make first mold without lube grooves, and use the "file" method to put knurling on bullets rather than lube grooves.

When I do wish lube grooves, I think perhaps cut mold to diameter with smooth tool, then move grooved tool into place for one cut without having to back out to clear chips.

We're getting there..... slowly {g}

Ken H>

[KenH]

Please be understanding, I've been out of cast bullet loading for 30 yrs now so am having to learn some new terms.

@303Guy:

I've also had boolit bases riveting below the shoulder.

Just what do you mean by the above statement?

Be careful using fast pistol powders, they can create pressure spikes that don't show up on the primer.

Could you expound on the above statement please? I know Bullseye is a fast powder, and not sure I've ever used it, but PB and the like has been my "go to" load for pistols. I see Bullseye recommended on these forums for light loads in rifles - am I missing something?

Thank ya'll for any help and suggestions,

Ken H>

[303Guy]

Hi Ken

Right, so you managed to read through my paragraph-less post. I don't know what happened there, I put them in but they disappeared and I couldn't get back in to edit it.

I wish I had a milling machine! It looks like you are having way too much fun.

By rebate I mean a diameter reduction at the base section like a gas check rebate only shallower, of say bore diameter.

By riveting I mean the exposed boolit base got expanded like a rivet.

Bullseye is fine for reduced loads. It's when one starts raising pressure that unwanted things start happening. I discovered this when the case neck got expanded into the rust pits in one of my rifle's chamber. It was a subsonic load too. Normally even full power loads do not expand the neck into the rust pits. That case had to be knocked out from the front.

Do you have a digital read out on your lathe? Mine didn't have one so I fitted a cheap one which is OK but the compound still needed something so I mounted a 100mm digital caliper to it. That works well.

One possibility is to mount a Dremel tool in your tool post for the finishing touches. I just thought of that because I have this Dremel bit sitting in front of me.

[KenH]

I wish I had a NICE digital readout on the lathe and milling machine both, but I don't. I did add an el-cheapo digital readout to the cross slide and carriage (I guess that's what you'd call the digital readout for the ways?). They work pretty good and I think I can go back to the same depth within ±.002" at least, but that's .004" variance..... That's probably ok, just make the lube grooves a bit wider. The problem I had was my tool wasn't mounted exactly straight so the sides of the bullet were not straight (did I mention I'd NOT a machinist?)

OK, by "pressure spikes with fast powders" you're talking about when pushing heaver loads. That's what I've always been aware of. Fast pistol powders are ONLY for VERY reduced loads in a rifle. I spent my younger years not worrying about recoil, but these days - give me a light pleasant load to shoot. Also MUCH more fun for the grandkids. I wish to instill in them the "joy" of shooting without them having to worry about the recoil.

"riveting" - ok, expand like a hollow base bullet would expand, except a flat base not designed to expand.

"rebate" - yea, I like that idea, should make the the bullet easier to seat in a tight neck without shaving lead.

Seems like I read somewhere when drilling out an existing mold like Lee's cheap aluminum molds ($21 shipped from Amazon) it's better to use a D cutter and milling machine rather than use a lathe? This would be for a smooth sided bullet. Would you care to comment on that idea? I've got a Lee Precision C312-155-2R Double Cavity Mold that should be delivered tomorrow (Tuesday) with plans to drill it out and machine for a PP bullet of .445" to .450" depending on measurement I get from slugging of barrel today. I understand a PP'd bullet for smokeless powder should be sized to groove diameter WITH paper patch?

Thanks to all, Ken H>

[303Guy]

I'm not sure about modifying a Lee mold. I have thought about it but setting up the mold in a four jaw with those handles attached didn't appeal to me. Besides, that mold makes a reasonable patch boolit core. Of course it can be done and maybe one day I will. I want to add a chamfer to the trailing edge and reduce the rebate depth. The chamfer is to eliminate the jagged trailing edge of the base pour.

I make my molds nose pour and achieve the trailing edge chamfer with the base plug. There is something to be said for smooth side, solid body molds. I used 8.8 grade bolts which actually harden from the heat and were free from the scrap bin.

On cutting the drive bands, you could cut the main body then use a grooving tool to cut each band groove to depth individually.

I must say though, I am a bit rusty on machining now. I have to think carefully using my lathe. I do miss the machine I was using at worth. It was fast and accurate. I could take millimetre cuts (on the diameter) and finish on size to within 0.01 mm, no final sizing. Nice machine that was. My lathe is slow and not very accurate which is quite frustrating.

It is suggested that a paper patch boolit should have a core just over bore diameter and a patched diameter just over groove diameter. I size mine to fill the throught and fit snugly into an unsized case neck. That's for a 303 Lee Enfield. These have tapered throats and when 'run in' have long and tapered throats. The sizing down on being driven into the bore tends to cause trailing edge feathering and base cupping, hence my obsession with rebates and chamfers. Your rifle may be quite different.

[KenH]

I couldn't figure how to make a nose pour mold, so I just did a search on nose pour molds - slick idea! Just have a plate on bottom (base) similar to the sprue plate on the pour side. Pour on one side, drop bullet on other side. The pour side (nose) wouldn't need to be hinged, just screwed in place.

That base "rebate" you're talking about - that pretty much makes the bullet like a "boat tail"? Is that correct? If so, I like that idea - I built up a 25-06 using a barreled Mauser '98 action back in '70's when I was doing so much shooting. It would only shoot Boat Tail Hollow Points with accuracy (5 shot group for a ragged hole at 100 yards).

The trial test I did on the Lee mold didn't work so good - the sides of bullet look good, but the nose isn't right - yet. I drilled with a .437" (7/16"), then drilled out with tool I made. I goofed by removing the mold to check depth, then using tool to center mold back under tool. I could tell it was off a tad, and that made the final hole .458" cast bullet diameter, even though the tool was .450". Also, the Lee bullet mold was too deep - , the cast bullet is 355 grains, and by the time the bottom of existing bullet is drilled out the bullet will be even more. I was hoping for a 335 grain or so - just light plinking loads.

I just purchased an old Springfield model 1884 Trapdoor in 45-70 that's in better shape (I hope) than my 43 Spanish is, so that might be what I'll be shooting. I think I need to hold off on more mold work until I get it here in a week or so. Here is what I got on Gunbroker.com:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=491490218

Off to post office for a money order to send the guy.

Thanks again for the help.

Ken H>