.30 Rimfire

[hot diggity]

Hi All,

I've been visiting here for some time, so I'm surprised that this is my first post. I'll try to make it interesting.

A friend has let me hold his 1872 Marlin XXX Standard pocket revolver, and has said that I can keep it, but with one condition.
I have six months to come up with 10 pieces of reloadable .30 Rimfire ammo. Before I had ever seen the gun I had one made
that would fit the chamber, headspace well and fire the primer without the need for an offset primer or rebated rim. The case, a .22 rim-fire primed shortened .22 hornet case with the rim thinned to .038", is beginning to look like the easy part. The bullet may be a bit more challenging.

Looking at the cylinder diameter, which appears to be the same from end to end, I'd like to use a heeled bullet. I'll slug the barrel this evening and see if I have a sizer that's close. I'm hoping that I can run 00 buckshot through a sizer and get enough length to form a heel on. I had made one bullet of .286" diameter that I mashed through a sizer I have since misplaced. I turned the heel on the first one and knurled the bearing surface, but the heel is too short to get good case tension.

I may be able to make use of a discovery I made quite by accident. I had forgotten the gas check seater was installed on the Lyman 450, and thinking I had just not given the arm enough pressure, watched a soft lead bullet stop moving downward and start moving outward as the pressure increased. The lower part, inside the sizing die, was .224" while the portion above the die had expanded to something like .30 caliber below the top punch. Looked like a short stemmed mushroom. This open-air-smash-swaging may help me get the initial size and weight I need for the .30 Rimfire. From there I can run the result through a sizer and turn the heel on the lathe if necessary. This is a low volume project, so I'm trying to keep it as simple and cheap as possible.

What I really need is some definite dimensions and weights from a genuine piece of .30 rimfire brass. I can make mine all the same, and using black powder charges I'm sure they'll be safe, (and wimpy) but I'd like to duplicate the original as nearly as possible. Anybody have one in their collection? Anybody done this before? The only measurement I can find online is the .286" bullet diameter.

Sorry if I ramble on a bit. I've done lots of odd case conversions, but this one has been keeping me up late.

Thanks in advance for any help or words of encouragement.

HD

[Mk42gunner]

From Cartridges of the World, 11th ed. there were two .30 rimfires the Short with a case length of .515", and the Long case length .613". OAL .822" and 1.020" respectively. Rim diameter from .340-.346".

It would probably be best to make your brass fit your gun, since I have found a lot of variations in CotW.

For projectiles, Lee did and maybe still does make a mold for .311" round balls, they may be able to be sized to work.

There is a very long thread on loading the .32 rimfire in this section, I would recommend looking at it for ideas.

Robert

[hot diggity]

Thanks for the dimensions Robert. I guess I made a .30 Medium Rimfire tonight, since my OAL on this test round was .989". This is no way to make bullets, but I was able to size a .314 bullet to .285 and then chuck it in the lathe and come up with a 65 grain, heeled, outside lubricated bullet with the profile of an oversize .22 long rifle bullet.

I have read through most of the .32 Rimfire thread, and was just about to head back over there again. It's inspiring, even if it isn't the same round. I have to hunt for any details on bullets that could be sized down to work in the .30 without a bunch of fuss.

My lead squashing project this evening was enlightening, if not very productive. It seems that whatever I do to put a shape on one end of a long lead bullet, I had better be forming the opposite end at the same time. I was surprised by how completely the nicely turned heel on a bullet could flow back out when I tried to resize the upper portion of the bullet.

HD

[texassako]

Sounds like you need a heeled .286" bullet? Find someone in the Bullet Exchange that can send you some 7mm soupcan bullets and trim it t just the top 2 bands. If it is the right size, you could get the Lee mold for it and cut down the blocks to cast the shortened version. I came up with a method of putting a heel on any bullet, but I did not see what your heel diameter is to figure out if a 7mm Lee FCD would squeeze down far enough. See here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...5-Carcano-dies

[hot diggity]

You may be on to something there Texassako! I just happen to have a Lee 7mm Soup Can mold. Its' never dropped a bullet, but looking at the design drawings it looks really promising. Unless I really like shooting this little pistol I may not even have to modify the mold. I'll just cut the bullet off in the lathe and machine the .250" heel below the second band. I get this diameter from having a fairly thick case wall from the .22 Hornet parent case. I seated one in a case last night and was very pleased with the tension.

I'll zip over and read your link to your heel making method and see what new mysteries you can unravel for me.

Thanks.

HD

[w30wcf]

You may be on to something there Texassako! I just happen to have a Lee 7mm Soup Can mold. Its' never dropped a bullet, but looking at the design drawings it looks really promising. Unless I really like shooting this little pistol I may not even have to modify the mold. I'll just cut the bullet off in the lathe and machine the .250" heel below the second band. I get this diameter from having a fairly thick case wall from the .22 Hornet parent case. I seated one in a case last night and was very pleased with the tension.

I'll zip over and read your link to your heel making method and see what new mysteries you can unravel for me.

Thanks.

HD

Here are some cartridges.......

http://www.soldusa.com/rainworx/detail.asp?id=68317

w30wcf

[kootne]

Don't know if this idea will help out on your project but you can turn up an insert for a longer mold cavity to shorten the length and modify the nose. This insert can cover up multiple grooves if desired. The insert will have to stuck back in after each cast with a pair of needle nose pliers. You can also bore out the step on a gas check mold to make the step work for your heel bullet (assuming you can find a mold that is giving you the desired groove dia.)
Anyway, the ideas are free, run as far with them as you like.

[hot diggity]

Gentlemen,

Your responses are just the sort of inspiration I needed. It turned out to be the 6.5 Swede mold that I had, but I have a Lee 7mm Soup Can on order, along with a .22-250 collet die. After studying the dimensions on the 7mm Soup Can mold, I may be able to turn a heel behind the second band, or cut out the center band entirely and then make a very narrow cut-off bit to split the bullet into one round nose and one wad cutter with one grease groove each.

Initial test with my first round, loaded with FFG black powder and a 65gr lathe turned, outside lubed, heeled bullet penetrated about 1" of phone book at an across-the-card-table range. Honestly, I was happy it didn't bounce off. The total charge is about the volume of a .22 Short case. I dug through all my BP and have only FFG. Local outfitter has only FFG and FFFFG. I have nothing that requires FFFFG (Brown Bess will fire with FFG as a priming charge) but with this small a cartridge capacity it may be best. Opinions? I've been using BP in muzzle loaders and cartridge firearms for 40+ years, but only with FFG and FFFG BP. If there is some hidden magic in the FFFFG, other than that it'll fall through the nipple on a cap & ball revolver, I am unaware of it. I got zero change in any dimension, (Case, inserted .22 primed case, or bullet heel) on my FFG test load, so pressure doesn't seem to be an issue. In fact, I will shoot the same slightly deformed bullet again once I get a different powder to test.

Being able to modify the mold with an insert may be an idea I can use on a number of longer bullet molds where I'm searching for the best compromise between weight and velocity. (6.5 Jap with 170gr Lee Cruise Missile was giving me fits until I pushed it faster.) Having Dad's ancient Craftsman lathe in the shop, I always just imagined cutting bullets to a different length, but the insert idea is brilliant.

I will also be watching the auction on the genuine .30 RF Short with much interest. I wouldn't want to shoot any near 100 year old collectable ammo, but as a collector and trader, this action holds special interest. I've already promised two of my reloadable .30 rimfire cases to local collectors once I get them perfected.

Fascinating stuff, and I will sleep well tonight with visions of old time riverboat gamblers and clouds of black powder smoke drifting in and out of my dreams.

HD

[hot diggity]

First several tests have gone bang 100%. I got the case length trimmed to the .613" .30 Long specification, and matched the OAL to the original 1.020" using a shortened Lee 7mm Soup Can bullet. I turned the heel at the first grease groove and cut the bullet off just a little below that groove. This gives me a 67gr bullet in soft lead, and it'll be easy enough to mill the mold off at that length. First one fired had engraved the shallow rifling beautifully.

Now the fun part is going to be finding the perfect FCD to get the heel squashed down to .251" using Texassako's brilliant technique. I have tested this method and easily squeezed a .356" WW bullet down to .311" in the middle. The fins might even be somewhat useful in ensuring a snug fit. (I used blue Loctite on one that I loosened up by repeatedly installing and removing it from the case to get the OAL right) Making one heel at a time in the lathe is both time consuming and wasteful, so I look forward to finding the perfect FCD to form the heel on these bullets.

I have studied my .308 FCD and at complete closure on the collet when it's pushed up all the way I'm getting .311". With the die completely compressed, it may be possible for me to hone a slightly too small FCD to make the correct heel diameter. However, it would be sooo much easier if I could just get the right FCD the first time. Using only the .308 FCD as a guide, I get a minimum diameter .002" larger than bullet diameter. That puts me between .243 and .25 caliber FCD range. Since I load .25 Remington, I'll see if I can find one that might be made to work on that case. If it'll size a heel at .254" I could ream the cases just a bit. I'll also order a .243 Win
sizer and see how my honing technique works. I should be able to activate the collet in the FCD with the tool rest while I have a fixed hone rod inside it. I've made larger changes in bullet sizer diameters and they couldn't be made to squeeze!

This is great fun, I've really appreciated the great advice, and if anybody knows exactly which Lee FCD will produce a .251"-.252" minimum diameter please let me know.

I'm off to the range, then back to the reloading bench to attempt mastery of paper cartridge rolling before I get some honey-do list that eats up my afternoon.

HD

[hot diggity]

I took so long putting that last post together that I got a message to "reload the window." Struck me as funny on this site.

HD

[Wayne Smith]

Since you have a lathe ... Bernie at Old West Bullets makes a modified Lee FCD to crimp heeled boolits. I have one of his for my 41Colt, but since I am using heeled boolits and a long one at that (thus a shorter case) I had to shorten it a bit with my grinder. Works fine. You should be able to do the same thing with your brass. Just have the collet close at the base of the boolit.

The "long" and "short" versions of original heeled bullet cartridges often reflect the use of an inside the case boolit (soft lead, hp to bump up) or the original heeled bullet. The heeled bullet takes the 'short' case.

[hot diggity]

Hi Wayne,

My heel is only .080" long, but with a rather thick walled case they seat nice and snug. From the very limited data and photographs I can find of the .30RF both short and long were of the heeled bullet design.

Inside lubed soft lead HB I'll have to try. With the reduced diameter I could chuck the bullet in the lathe to form the hollow base with an old center drill, and then smooth out any indentations from the chuck when the bullet is sized. I've got an RCBS .25-85-CM mold that will get me closer to the diameter I need to fit the case while still retaining the grease grooves. I haven't dropped a bullet from this mold yet, so I'll have to do that, hollow a base and see what it weighs. Since this is a BP load I'll fill the base cavity with stiffened 40 year old Crisco from the muzzle loader stuff.

My heeled bullets are running 65gr which seems about right since the .32RF used 80 and 90gr in the short and long version. I also wan to try just tapping a piece of #1 Buckshot into the case mouth and then run the (unprimed) case up into the .22 Hornet FL die to squeeze the bullet down to the diameter of the case. That should get everything stuck in the die together, so I'll have to tap it back out as an assembled case and bullet from the top. Maybe knurl the bullet a bit with a file to hold lube, or just dip it in liquid Alox or JPW. (wonderful stuff for outside lubed bullets) If I could get the ball seated at consistent depth I could trim .22lr cases to just contact the ball when they're seated and just fill that case with a slightly compressed BP charge before thumbing it into the .30RF adapter. Probably not very zippy, but from what I've seen so far in testing this ammo, it's maximum penetration on a phone book has been about an inch. Right in the middle of Dentistry in the yellow pages. Pretty impressive deformation and with white pages imbedded in the soft lead. Probably about as hard as you'd want to push a bullet in a brass framed gun that's 143 years old.

I'm off to the range to do some .30RF accuracy testing today, so this should be interesting.

HD

[hot diggity]

First full cylinder of reloadable .30RF Long didn't do too bad at seven yards. First shot was a bit high and right, 2 & 3 were in the black and
nearly touching at 2 O'clock, 4 was a bit low, and 5 was a dead center bullseye. Better than expected from a parlor gun with a barely visible rear sight that's just a deep scratch in the top of the frame above the hinge. I didn't really think about it until I was home, but there was surprisingly little smoke from the BP. A light breeze may have helped, and a 5gr (by weight) charge of FFFFG probably doesn't make much smoke anyway.

Johnson's Paste Wax is wonderful bullet lube for these outside lubricated bullets. Dries nice and hard, and gives the bullet a nice golden tint. The old shallow groove barrel is looking better and better the more I shoot it. It's starting to be more fun than work.

HD

[texassako]

Great to hear your project is going well. Now you need to post pics and let us see the results of your handiwork.

[TXGunNut]

Very good project write-up. Pics would indeed make it even better.

[ndnchf]

Heads up - This is an 8 year old thread.

I run an obsolete rimfire and heel bullet discussion group. The other day the topic of .30 rimfire cartridges was brought up. These were used in some early Sharps 4 barrel pistols, some Colt New Line revolvers and a few others in the 1860s - 1870s. Before I found this discussion, I came to the same conclusion - that it could be made from .22 Hornet brass. So last night, just for fun I set out to make one prototype. This one is reloadable using a .22 cal acorn blank as the rimfire primer. The case is about .500" long and uses a heel type bullet - nominally about .284" diameter (this one is a little undersize, but it's all I had lying about the shop). I don't have a .30 rimfire pistol, but I do have, and shoot many other long obsolete rimfire guns. Now I need to keep my eye out for one

[turtlezx]

how about a pic of the gun ??

[ndnchf]

how about a pic of the gun ??

The OP has not been back since 2016, so don't hold your breath. Google "sharps 4 barrel pistol" to see the most common gun in this chambering.

[dtknowles]

I just got a Stevens derringer in 30 rf. Made some bullets from buckshot and pulled the bullet from .25 rf, expanded the case mouth.

That test with only a tiny amount of powder went bang and hit the target. Woo Hoo.

Next I drilled out the head of that piece of brass and chamfered it so it would take a 6mm nail gun blank. I cut the crimp off the blank and dumped the powder and use that as the primer. (actually I first tested with just the nail gun blank and nothing else by itself and it went bang).

Warning Safety warning, don't use a power tool to cut on blank cartridges, it will cause them to explode.

Anyway, the 6mm blank with no crimp or powder, 4.2 gr. of black powder dust, my reamed and chamfered .25 rf case and my buckshot bullets chrono'd 532 fps. The damn .25 rf case sticks in the chamber every time, the gun has no extractor and the case has almost no rim, poking down the bore just pushes out the blank.

I am about to step outside and breach seat the buckshot, charge with powder and prime with the blank with no other case. More to follow.
Tim

[ndnchf]

Interesting - keep the updates coming.