How Well Do 1917 Enfields Shoot?

[dromia]

M17s were sent over to the UK at the start of the second world war to help out with the shortage of rifles, they went to Home Guard Units and such like and it would have been referred to as the P17 here, a P14 in 30-06.

They were replaced as soon as possible, because of ammo supply, with .303"s. This where I think some of the confusion arises over nomenclature. The rifle was made and designated as Model (M) 17.

[Bob S]

A lot of the M1917's also went to the Philippines and the Dutch East Indies, and after WW II, to Denmark. We found a few of them in Vietnam, how they got there I have no clue.

I haven't looked at it in awhile, but I had a couple of issues with MAJ Culver's article. I don't know where he got the minimum trigger pull as 3 lbs; all of the original gov't lit in my collection says 4-1/2 lbs min. Despite the issues with the crude sight adjustments and "cock on closing", the rapid fire scores in the 1918 National Matches were considerably higher than those fired in previous years. This was the year that Small Arms Firing School was established, to instruct shooters in the use of the new-fangled M1917. What is frequently not mentioned, or appreciated, in discussions of the debate over adoption of the M1917 as THE service rifle in the post WW I period is that the three production lines for the M1917 had already been closed down, and the machinery either sold off or converted to other uses. And all three facilities had a history of labor difficulties. So the rifle was not "sustainable" without another round of significant "start-up" costs. Contrast that with two fully operable production lines for the M1903 staffed by government employees who had little to stand on in the event of labor disputes in those days. (the Rock Island production facility was deactivated shortly after this debate concluded).

Remington Illion cobbled together a modification of the M1917 in 7mm from left over parts, for foreign military sales, and produced a greatly modified version as the M30 sporting rifle (also using a fair bit of left over parts), up through the Model 720 of 1941. I won two 720's in the 1980's as Secretary of the Navy Trophy Rifles, and you have to look close to see the M1917 lineage, but it's there.

The Marine Corps developed a windage-adjustable rear sight for the M1917 just in case it was adopted as the service rifle. (The match sight illustrated in my previous post was far too delicate for service use, and did not have a battle sight. Bruce Canfield attributed this sight development to Remington Illion, but the one that I own is clearly made on a Winchester ladder.) For those familiar with the M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle, the USMC experimental M1917 rear sight had a windage mechanism that is close to or identical to that used on the last mod of the BAR. The first two mods of the BAR used the unmodified rear sight leaf from the M1917 rifle, and it also had no windage adjustment. I have only seen a couple of fuzzy photos of the USMC M1917 sight, but I would be willing to bet that the windage adjustment on the late BAR's was developed in the USMC design/overhaul facility in the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard circa 1919, and simply adopted by Army Ordnance a few decades later.

For us Yanks not familiar with the cock-on-closing action, a minimal amount of training with it should convince you that you can operate it as fast as a cock-on-opening action, and with less disruption to your position while doing so. You need to put a nickel in the magazine between the rear of the follower and the feed lips of the receiver to prevent the follower from stopping the bolt while practicing. Of course, if you want a manually-operated service rifle with a fast action that will really stay on the target as you operate it, pick up a Swiss Schmidt-Rubin or a K31. But that's another story.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[45nut]

For us Yanks not familiar with the cock-on-closing action, a minimal amount of training with it should convince you that you can operate it as fast as a cock-on-opening action, and with less disruption to your position while doing so. You need to put a nickel in the magazine between the rear of the follower and the feed lips of the receiver to prevent the follower from stopping the bolt while practicing.

Well there is a idea I had not come across before. Seems like it would work with any coin that would fit a particular rifle huh? So simple its genius.

[TENRINGS]

The National Match sight that wasn't quite ready for the 1918 National Matches:









I had a hard time getting this one to shoot acceptably with .308 jacketed bullets until I reread the entry in Hatcher's Notebook about the bore/groove dimensions. This is about the best it would do with .308 bullets (this is a darn good lot of GI Match):



When I switched to the Hornady 174 grain FMJBT ".303 bullet", which mikes .3105 (laughably too small for any .303 Brit I have ever fired, but perfect for the 5-groove M1917), instant success. This was fired at 100 yards prone, using the "National Match" rear sight, 42 grains of "new" surplus 4895, which is considerably quicker than any 4895 I ever got from the DCM, or the DuPont cannister 4895:



I don't consider three rounds a "group", but I will shoot "triangles" when I am working up a table of elevations for military sights, which is what I was doing when I fired this:



Resp'y,
Bob S.

BOb

niice looking 17, question on the site is it available anywhere?
you also say 4895 surplus but new surplus. where would that be avail.?? especially today...

nice shooting,i just bought a 17 have'nt got ityet but very soon,don't know much bout it cept its a 17 and was closet for many years.. an old bud of mine.. i got high hope's lol

thanks
tenrings

[Jim]

Well there is a idea I had not come across before. Seems like it would work with any coin that would fit a particular rifle huh? So simple its genius.

The rear of the follower in my '17 has been carefully machined to a chamfer to allow the bolt to close without having to "nickel" it or push the follower down. I didn't do that, that's the way it was when I got it. I kinda' like that, personally.

[Buckshot]

Group fired at Winnemucca, NV (NCBS 2006) . Very first 'For Effect' group fired with new rifle. Load 23.0grs H4198 + Dacron, Lyman 311284. Fired at 50 yards, 1.050".




...............Buckshot

[Bob S]

The prototype sight is somewhat unique; it's the only example I have ever seen. It seems that no one else knew what it was when it was up for bids, except maybe one guy who said he "forgot" to bid, and then pestered me with emails for weeks after offering to trade everything under the sun, and then sums of cash. That was back when eBay didn't mask bidders ID's. I can appreciate why they did that now ....

If you want a "target" sight for the M1917, and you don't want to alter the rifle, a Parker-Hale No. 5B is the best bet. They come up on the auction sites regularly. The sight is designed for the P14 rifle: it is held on the receiver primarily by spring tension from the bolt stop, but also uses the existing axis screw. For those unfamiliar, the bolt stop spring for the M1917 differs from the P14 part, which was originally used to tension the volley sight on the P14 as well as provide tension for the bolt stop. The P14 part is a little narrower on the tail. To get the P-H sight to fit the M1917 properly, you will have to stone the M1917 bolt stop spring down to fit the dovetail on the sight base, or just purchase the P14 part and substitute it for the M1917 part.

Follower: most military rifles have a "blocking follower" to let the soldier know that the magazine is empty and needs to be recharged. In the heat of battle, one doesn't count shots, and the ability to close the bolt on an empty chamber could be fatal. For some strange reason, some South American and Yugo mausers don't have the feature. In a sitting or prone rapid fire string, the ability to close the bolt on an empty chamber can cost you points, that's why I choose to leave it be, and just improvise for practice operation. My Model 70 Target rifles do not have the feature, so I substituted a M1903 Springfield follower in the 30-06 rifle, and an Israeli mauser follower in the .308 International Match. For most hunting situations, the blocking follower is an inconvenience, and altering it is usually one of the first things done in the "sporterization" process. I didn't invent the coin trick; my grandfather showed me that one many years ago. He was issued a M1917 in 1918.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Stoats]

Bob, I have found cock-on-closing (COC) to be far faster than COO, since it is FAR easier to open the bolt. Bu then I'm a Brit brought up on Lee-Enfields, so expect 20+ nrounds per min from a boltgun

[Echo]

My 1917 started as a barreled action I got from my FIL. Kept it around for years, finally policed up action, sights, furniture on eBay and gave it to a smith friend to assemble. He got it back to me with a target. Barrel needed re-crowning, almost counterboring. Bore wasn't concentric with OD, so crown was inconsistant, and accuracy had a lot of randomness. Should have a picture of it - 100-yard cloverleaf. Load was 165 gr AMax and 60 grains of 4831 down a lonnng drop tube.

Haven't really shot it much, but intend to send only Pb down the bore...

[Three44s]

I am just getting acquainted with my first M1917 Enfield .......

...... but COC works for me!

Three 44s