Cherrys

[44man]

I have been making my own molds for a while and had trouble with my cherrys warping. I don't have anything but a torch and don't want to spend any money because I am retired.
I found a way to do it today and it worked like a charm. I chucked the end of the cherry in my drill press, put a can of oil under it and turned on the drill at slow speed. I heated the thing real good, shut off the drill and opened the chuck. The cherry fell straight into the oil without me having to worry about dipping it straight. :idea
Since this is my first post here, is there a way to put pictures on a post?[/img]

[Greg5278]

Perhaps if you have enough heat with your torch you could heat it in a salt pot. Put the salt in a container that won't melt, and fill it with kosher salt, then melt the salt with the torch. You will have to guess at the temp, but then put the cherry in on a wire. Then you can quench it as normal.

What are you using for cherry material, O-1, W-2, or other? You could try A-6, it will harden at 1650F in oil to the mid 60s. Some heat treating outfits could put it in the pot with another batch of material and charge only a few dollars. Do you have the ability to grind the cherries when Hard? Try making a blank, and heat treating it for less distortion. Greg

[44man]

Greg, I have only small tanks and would use all my gas to melt the salt. I can't grind the tools either. The cherry I made cut great and made a beautiful boolit. Trouble is that it came out .002" undersize. The gas check fit good. I have been cutting all my cherrys to boolit size up to .45 caliber but this one is .476. (.475 Linebaugh) The lead must shrink more on the large diameter boolits. I have not worked out the ideal sizes for each caliber because it takes me a day to make the cherry. I have to use an end mill to cut the flutes then hand file the nose cutters. My .44 boolits came out .430 and my .45's came out .459. (45-70 revolver)
I have started another cherry that is larger. Very hard to do on a Smithy. REAL hard to control cutting small amounts.
I really don't know the steel as I buy from several places on the net. It works good and does not shrink when I harden it and I just make aluminum molds so I don't need anything fancy.
Some of my boolits have shot 1" groups at 75 yd's from my revolvers so I am doing OK with what I have, it just takes a lot of time to make the things.
It gives me a chance to test different boolits without spending Social Security.

[44man]

Greg, forgot to mention that the mold came out exactly round and when I open the handles the boolit falls right out. I don't have to tap the pin at all. Darned best mold I have ever used including many custom ones. Shame it is a little too small. I might polish it with Comet cleanser. .0005" out of it would be enough. It shot fairly good at 50 yd's.

[Greg5278]

Is sounds like you have a good system, my suggestions were just to try an d make it better if neccesary. Your tolerances seem to be very accurate for your type of equipment. You mentioned the steel, but not what kind. For most simple steels, you can check it for critical temperature by touching a magnet to it. When it is no longer magnetic, it is ready to quench. I thought you were using the cherry repeatedly and wear resistance was an issue. Good luck Greg

[trk]

44Man, Greg (and others) -

Agree with y'all on the option of using air-hardening steel to limit warping.

Could you post some pictures? I picked up a lathe and milling machine a few years back SPECIFICALLY so I could make my own moulds. I've spent the interim cleaning, fixing, getting tools, building mortars and cannons (to sharpen my skills) and started a Blackpowder Mortar and Cannon forum which I co-moderate with another cannon-addict.

Now is the time for me to get back to moulds, I built a radius cutter to do the spherical radius on a 5-1/4" OD 'Dictator' mortar and now am going to build one for cannon ball moulds. But I really want to get back to doing moulds in .358 .375 and .458 diameters.

[44man]

Trk, I am going to send pictures to 45nut to post. I sure wish I had good equipment but I was never a machinist. Had to do a lot of talking to the wife to buy the Smithy. Had to learn by myself. I do a lot of head scratching but I do have fun.
I was a fueler and bag smasher at United Airlines for 42 years and got out just in time.

[trk]

Trk, I am going to send pictures to 45nut to post. I sure wish I had good equipment but I was never a machinist. Had to do a lot of talking to the wife to buy the Smithy. Had to learn by myself. I do a lot of head scratching but I do have fun. ....

COOL! I am building mortars and cannons now on my mill and lathe. For a given job the first third is fixing something, next is building the tooling and last is doing the job.

I co-host a forum on mortars and cannon - it is through a lot of folks posting their pictures that I've learned a lot of cool techniques to use in my work. So even though you may not be using the MOST sophisticated setup, seeing how you solve a setup problem with a minimum of equipment is probably more useful.

[44man]

TRK, I sent pictures but 45nut only gets one. I don't know why so I am sending him one at a time in case his mailbox gets filled too fast.

[45nut]

there we go...nice pics

[trk]

Good pix!

I'd love to know more of the details of the vice operation.

[44man]

trk, I went to a foundry in PA and got two risers. They said it was top grade cast iron, better believe it! I sat and looked at those big mushroom shaped things and could not figure how to cut them. A saw blade just squeeked. I wound up putting a cut off wheel on my body sander to saw it. To get rectangles I ground it with an angle grinder. My yard and drive was rusty for a year. I finally got them down far enough to get under my mill. Stuff ate cutters. The hardest part was cutting the cavities for the mold blocks. The inner corners had to be chiseled out.
I got the pictures of the vice on shooters.com. There are two guide rods running through the vice. The screw has a left hand thread on one side and a right hand thread on the other. When tightening it, the jaws move toward the center together. I changed the configuration to fit in place of my milling table by cutting dovetails on the bottom. I remove my table from the base and slide the vice on using the gib from the table to remove all play. The lug in the back has the end of the screw shaft locked into it so the screw stays put. I screw the lug to the table base with two cap screws. I have a snap ring on the inner side of the screw and a washer and pin on the back end. This keeps it in the lug so the screw is stationary as the jaws move. Thing works like a champ. The only out of alignment I get is from the cherry as it cuts because of the cutting action. It tends to lead away from the cutters. If I am careful, this will only be .0005. I also keep cleaning chips like I explained before and when the blocks are closed as tight as I can get them, I let it run free for a while with WD-40 in the cavity. They really shine.
I made a new mold yesterday and cast a pile of boolits today. It is great to cut the sprue and just swing the mold toward the water bucket as I open the blocks. The boolit just falls out. I never have any burrs inside the cavity. This is a continual learning process trying to figure out what design boolit to make and what size to make the cherry. I waste a lot of steel. It is hard to figure what to take off for a gas check because I like to tap them on by tapping on the work bench. Sure wish I had a good mill and lathe.
It took me two weeks to make the vice.

[trk]

Great definition -

You've given me the keys I was looking for - like the bracket holding the operating screw in place and the guide rods. Had to laugh at the rust. I know what cast iron is (foundery in town 20 miles from here and I've worked in a brake manufacturing plant as a tooling engineer).

I'm looking at building two fixtures - one for the lathe and one for the mill. I want to do multiple cavities.

I got the lathes (2 identical Supermax 1338's) and a Kurt variable speed 3hp vertical mill for $1800 when the HS closed out their metal working program. Lot's of work cleaning and fixing before I get to the work of fixturing to do the real work. What I'm saying is to look around for 2nd hand equipment - sometimes it goes cheap. Don't be afraid of 3 phase - you can build or buy a rotary converter.

[44man]

I am always looking, but never find a bargain. Some of my friends just fall into things but I am unlucky. The only thing I have ever won in my life was a baseball cap. I could buy every lottery ticket but one and still lose. Then being retired on a fixed income (except for the IRS) I have to be careful what I find. Thats why I never go to gun shows because I always see something I can't afford and think about it for years. I have had to sell off silhouette guns to buy new hunting guns. Some are now worth a fortune.

[Willbird]

Talking about cast Iron, I cut my teethas a machinest on schedule 30 grey iron, wonderfull stuff to machine, it will spoil you, no matter how much you shower or bathe tho your bed pillow ends up rusty as the stuff comes out of your pores when you sweat.

I have been cogitating on an idea to put power feed on my rotary table for the milling machine so I can circle mill boolit cavities....I need to jury rig it and see how round of a hole I can make. It comes to mind that if you moved most of the amount needed to make a .430 boolit with a .370 cherry on the Y axis that you could then move the X axis the last several .001 to achieve final dia and have sort of a fine method of increasing dia that was not 1-1 like doing it all on the X axis. But I guess to withdraw the cutter to measure the cavity I would still have to move both slides, one could mark the cavity up with black sharpie tho to know when you were cutting again to take off the final amount.

taking the exact dia requirement away from the cherry making process would make it much easier I think. I also would not have to close the blocks on the cherry if I can circlemill them. I have all day if needed to "spark out" the finish pass if needed

How many cutting flutes do your cherries have 44man ?

Bill

[44man]

I cut six flutes far enought to reduce the rub area on the next flutes. For the .475 I went in .090". However, I only file three flutes to the nose as this is a lot easier and they cut good.
Cutting four flutes would not help me because as much metal would have to be removed to reduce the rub area.
The trouble with cherries is if the size is not right, another has to be made. My machinery is not good enough to bore a cavity.

[carpetman]

44Man--You cut 6 flutes to reduce rub area on the next flute. You are correct,the awkward way flutes are held requires more room. Even a trombone doesn't require as much space. Personally,I like the clarinet better. Would seem that putting a 90 degree bend in it where it points straight ahead would be the easiest fix.

[Greg5278]

Couldn't you make a profile tool and use it in a boring head on the mill to cut the cavity? You couls use the tool for multiple calibers. A rotary vice on the mill would allow you to offset the blocks and cut a cavity larger than the tool itself. I figure it would clear chips better, and give you more utility. I am not a machinist, but I think you could set the mold blocks in the 4 jaw rotary vise, and still bore multiple cavities.

I have seen several good heavy duty 4 jaw vices that could be bolted to the table on a Bridgeport Mill. Moldmakers who lathe bore the cavities also use the 4 jaw chuck to line up and indicate the blocks. Are you milling the profile on the cherry, and then stoning it after hardening?

My Grandfather an I had dicsussed making a profile tool to cut a 12 gauge cavity in the lathe. We were going to use a preground HSS tool blank, and cut the finished cavity in 1 step. The major stock removal would be drilled, and bored to minimize chatter on the final cut.

If you had the ability to grind hardened steel, you could probably use an old chucking reamer to make a cherry. The biggest prolem with all of this is the ability to precision grind hardened steel. You can even buy reamer blanks with 6 and 8 flutes already cut. Greg

[Greg5278]

I forgot to mention something. Are you guys interested in any rough milled cast iron blocks to make molds? I am probably going to buy a bar, and need to make a minimum order. It will be continous cast iron, and fre of any surface crap. I am looking at a bar to finish up at 1.000 by 2.000, and I can cut whatever length we need. I will rough mill all surfaces, except for the saw cut end which will not affect any thing. Is any body interested in some pieces? Greg

[trk]

I forgot to mention something. Are you guys interested in any rough milled cast iron blocks to make molds? I am probably going to buy a bar, and need to make a minimum order. It will be continous cast iron, and fre of any surface crap. I am looking at a bar to finish up at 1.000 by 2.000, and I can cut whatever length we need. I will rough mill all surfaces, except for the saw cut end which will not affect any thing. Is any body interested in some pieces? Greg

I'm interested. Where on the 'east coast' are you?