Paper patched bullet design

[willdixon]

Thank you very much 45 2.1 -

Well I've been planning all along on cleaning the bore (two wet wipes and one dry?) after each shot, and I will only be using black powder.

So I've wasted my money on this mould? http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,7174.html

I'd planning on using 20:1, by the way.

[leftiye]

No, you probly haven't wasted your money. Your starting diameter is too small, yes, but for smokeless powder. I think 45 2.1 figured it out right, your dimension might be correct for Black Powder where the boolit "bumps up" to fill the rifling due to the shock wave that black powder generates upon ignition. Don't give up until you put some down range (for heaven's sake)!

[Buckshot]

...............I've had excellent results patching up both grooved (lube grooved) and smooth slugs. In patching a smooth boolit like these below:



The leading edge of the patch needs to be protected upon it's entry into the leade (for cartridge rifles). For slugs such as these you need to patch beyond the ogive. This way the lands do not push the patch back. But instead force it down into the slug engraving it. If the leade is such that there is a shallow beginning, you can generally patch TO the ogive, as below:



You can see that the lands have engraved or marked the boolit AND the paper without otherwise damaging it. If this cannot be accomplished then it either has to be patched beyond the ogive, or turned into a protective groove. This is especially the situation normally encountered when using a patched slug in a repeater, like a lever action or the various transitional early BPC military rifles.



These slugs above are patched up to be used in a 45 cal muzzle loading match rifle. Since they're loaded from the muzzle and there is no leade to deal with, only the parallel portion (or bearing portion) need be protected.



These 577-450 Martini cartridges are loaded with the Lee 457-405F slug. It's used 'as cast' at about .457" and using 2 wraps of 20lb (.004") paper. This gives about a .470" OD over the patch when dry. These are smokless loads.

................Buckshot

[willdixon]

Thank you very much, leftiye and Buckshot.

Well I probably did not put it wisely, about my mould being a waste of money. But it hasn't gotten here yet, and I assume Buffalo would take it back if I asked them to, but first:

No, I'll never be firing smokeless powder. And yes I'll also be cleaning after each shot; I won't be in any timed events. And yes, I figured on some obduration, but I also read about a lot of the experts who are using much larger diameter bullets, under these same circumstances, patched out to groove size with very thin paper, around .0014" etc. And they're cleaning after each shot and making really small groups out to 1K yards!

So, if I thought for a second this .492" bullet were going to be too loose, I'd try to return the mould to Buffalo.

They sell a mould for a tapered spitzer which is .503" in diameter, but I don't think I want a tapered spitzer - do I? - and wouldn't .503 be too large in diameter, before patching?

So, if this .492 won't work for me, I'll have to go for some custom mould, and for the reasonable investment I'll have in this mould, I guess you're probably right leftiye, and I ought to give it a try for a few rounds.

And thank you Buckshot for your tutorial; you answered exactly some of the questions which have been going around in my head, including how far up to patch the bullets to get the patch started in the grooves so they don't unwrap the bullet right there in the chamber.

Man, those polished cup based bullets in your top picture are gorgeous!

Thanks, guys, I really do appreciate the help!

[windrider919]

45 2.1 and leftie are as usual the answer guys. Helped me just recently because I was using BP dimensions when shooting smokeless with those Buffalo Arms 510gr .450dia cup based bullets. Reminded me that throat diameter was critical to accuracy, not just bore and groove dia. I am now patching to throat diameter and my groups lost 1/2 inch on the average. And that is why the custom bullet on shown earlier on this thread will (should) mike .455. It will be 'overbore' compared to the .450 pills but will be patched 2 wraps to throat dia. and set to just touch the rifling. I live to experiment and this is heaven for me. Thanks for the advice gentlemen, its what makes belonging to this forum so great

[leftiye]

Windrider, Thanks a lot, but Buckshot has it all over on me in most areas, not only this one.

WillDixon, I can't find where you say whether you're shooting BPCR, or muzzle loader. Your mold would work fine (I'd expect) in a muzzleloader situation like the boolits in Buckshot's picture. If you're shooting in a breechloader, you should look at 45 2.1 and windrider's info above about shooting groove diameter or larger (throat/freebore diameter) finished combinations based on bore or bore plus .001" diameter boolits. Buffalo arms might ream out your mold for you if you asked them (if you decide you need a larger boolit). Alternatively, another gunsmith or machinist could do it. This would only be a good idea if your mold produces a smooth sided boolit. Otherwise, you'd end up with a smooth sided boolit!

[willdixon]

Yes, leftyie, it's a PEDERSOLI SHARPS QUIGLEY 50/90.

You're right, I guess I hadn't mentioned that one small detail - smile.

Thank you.

[Red River Rick]

Willdixon:

Perhaps something like this may interest you. This is a .45 cal mould, bullet drops out at approx. 0.440" and are adjustable to a max weight of 650 grs. If your interested in something larger, no problem, .50 cal is available as well.

RRR

[willdixon]

Thank you very much, Rick -

And I know all about you and your terrific moulds; Dan, in Alaska, has been singing your praises to me for some time now. And indeed your mould looks marvelous!

I'll let you know.

Thanks again!

[willdixon]

Hi gents:

Did you see my post elsewhere about my new loads? Finally finished my very first PP BPCR loads for my 34" PEDERSOLI SHARPS QUIGLEY 50/90, and I'll be sighting them in tomorrow. I DO WISH I knew how to post my pictures of these beauties; they really look gorgeous. The rifle has never been fired. And my ONLY purpose in these paramaters is long-distance target shooting:

For better or worse, they are:

BACO .492" mould
650gn
1.44" long
20:1 lead/tin
Brass Starline, annealed, full sized (had to; they wouldn't chamber), weighed, measured, deburred
All bullets within .5gn of each other, indexed in cases
Primers Federal 215 Large Magnum Rifle
Cartridges will be indexed in rifle
Powder 122gn Swiss 1.5, slowly trickled through a 2' drop tube.
Patch BACO 9# dry wrapped; not lubed; I'll leave a little lube in the bore after each shot perhaps.
Over powder wad - two .030 veggie wads, no other wads nor grease cookies.
Clean bore after each shot, NAPA + water
Compress powder .085
Bullet seat .285, which puts bullet well up into rifling.

I'll have to shoot these up pretty fast, 'cause I've got to check in the hospital June 9th, for my second open-heart surgery, and my prospects are a tad dismal.

Best wishes....

[405]

willdixon,
Important.... Wishing you the best with the ticker work!!!

Not so important......The load as you described seems pretty hueno ok.
BP will bump bullets up a tad. The softer the better for this.

I can only pass on what I've found about PP and blackpowder.
I use all cotton paper, twice wrapped. I shoot pure lead swaged tapered bullets. My barrel groove diameter is .458. I swage the bullets at .447. The paper patched bullets when dry mic at .455. That is a little past half way between bore and groove diameter. I think based on accuracy and fouling and the like that I see with that combo.... the bullets do bump to full groove diameter. I seat the bullets to end up looking about like the ones in Buckshots pics. When chambered the paper patch engraves about .1" into the rifling. In the 45-110, 18 twist Sharps a 1.5 cal long roundnose 520 gr. PP bullet over FFG BP with a grease cookie sandwiched between two .030 cards is accurate and maintains stability out to 500 yds. I'm sure that the bullet would remain stable and relatively "accurate" for as long as the bullet stays in the air. They did show clean, circular entrance holes on target paper at 1000yds the one time I spent serious time shooting to that distance. The rest of my paper punching is 500 yds. or less.

[willdixon]

THANK YOU, 405, for the kind words and technical tips.

And your loads are basically the same as mine, except I'm not using the grease cookies, and my lead is 20:1 rather than your pure lead.

Thank you very much!

[Bigjohn]

Thank you very much, leftiye and Buckshot.

Well I probably did not put it wisely, about my mould being a waste of money. But it hasn't gotten here yet, and I assume Buffalo would take it back if I asked them to, but first:

No, I'll never be firing smokeless powder. And yes I'll also be cleaning after each shot; I won't be in any timed events. And yes, I figured on some obduration, but I also read about a lot of the experts who are using much larger diameter bullets, under these same circumstances, patched out to groove size with very thin paper, around .0014" etc. And they're cleaning after each shot and making really small groups out to 1K yards!

So, if I thought for a second this .492" bullet were going to be too loose, I'd try to return the mould to Buffalo.

They sell a mould for a tapered spitzer which is .503" in diameter, but I don't think I want a tapered spitzer - do I? - and wouldn't .503 be too large in diameter, before patching?

So, if this .492 won't work for me, I'll have to go for some custom mould, and for the reasonable investment I'll have in this mould, I guess you're probably right leftiye, and I ought to give it a try for a few rounds.

And thank you Buckshot for your tutorial; you answered exactly some of the questions which have been going around in my head, including how far up to patch the bullets to get the patch started in the grooves so they don't unwrap the bullet right there in the chamber.

Man, those polished cup based bullets in your top picture are gorgeous!

Thanks, guys, I really do appreciate the help!

Will, If the mold is undersized and does not shoot well with your loads, I don't think you have wasted your money.

After all is said and done, it is easier to remove metal than to replace metal; especially in a mold cavity.

With a bit of careful work, the cavity could be enlarged. Speak to some of those more expert than me on this matter if it does not give you the results you expect.

John.

[Etienne Brule]

Willdixon:

Perhaps something like this may interest you. This is a .45 cal mould, bullet drops out at approx. 0.440" and are adjustable to a max weight of 650 grs. If your interested in something larger, no problem, .50 cal is available as well.

RRR

Hi Rick,

Your mold has a place of choice with my Gibbs Pedersoli; I use 2 thickness of 25 cotton paper patches.





The bore is 0.4485 and everything is just GREAT.

Thank you

Etienne Brule ( aka Gerald Bergeron).

[willdixon]

Gentlemen:

BOY HAVE I GOT SOME GOOD NEWS FOR YOU - OR AT LEAST GOOD FOR ME!

After months of annoying you with my dumb questions, I finally cooked up and loaded my first 20 rounds for this PEDERSOLI SHARPS QUIGLEY 50/90, as follows:

BACO .492" mould
650gn
1.44" long
20:1 lead/tin
Brass Starline, annealed, full sized (had to; they wouldn't chamber), weighed, measured, deburred
All bullets within .5gn of each other, indexed in cases
Primers Federal 215 Large Magnum Rifle
Cartridges indexed in rifle
Powder 122gn Swiss 1.5
Patch BACO 9# dry wrapped; not lubed.
Over powder wad - two .030 veggie wads, no other wads nor grease cookies.
Clean bore after each shot, two patches of NAPA + water; one dry patch. Dry chamber last thing.
Compress powder .085
Bullet seat .285, well up into rifling

AND TODAY, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE, I FIRED MY VERY FIRST PP BPCR! NO BIG DEAL FOR YOU, BUT A HUGE ONE FOR ME!

Now remember, I'm 77 years old, and having to go into the hospital this coming Monday, at 6 am, for my SECOND open heart surgery, this time to have a pig's heart valve replace my leaking one.

I had bore sighted the Soule on center windage, but had simply screwed it all the way down to the bottom til it wouldn't go down any further, which I knew was going to make the first bullet low at 100 yards, but it gave me the advantage of starting out at a zero base.

And I was shooting a total of three two-shot groups.

First bullet was off the paper low, as I knew it would be, but on the cardboard target background, two inches below the NRA paper target. AND I WAS DELIGHTED TO LEARN THE RIFLE DID NOT KICK OBJECTIONABLY AT ALL, EVEN WITH THIS 650 GRAIN BULLET AND 122 GRAINS OF SWISS! JUST A HARD SHOVE, NOT A PAINFUL KICK!

THEN - BINGO!

THE SECOND BULLET HOLE CAME WITHIN 1 7/8" - CENTER-TO-CENTER - OF THE FIRST BULLET HOLE. THE VERY FIRST TWO BULLETS OUT OF THIS RIFLE, AND MY FIRST BLACK POWDER RELOADS, AND MY FIRST EVER TWO PP BPCR SHOTS WERE WITHIN 1 7/8" OF EACH OTHER AT 100 YARDS - EVEN IN MY WEAK AND TIRED PHYSICAL CONDITION!

I tweaked the windage and elevation a tad (not enough as it turned out), and the second two holes - my second two-shot group - still at 100 yards - was 1 3/4", center to center, just a little below the black.

One last windage and elevation tweak, and MY FIFTH SHOT WAS A #10 BULL'S EYE AT 100 YARDS, with the second shot only 2 1/4" away.

BRAND NEW RIFLE, NEVER FIRED BEFORE, NEW LOADS I INVENTED, HADN'T HAND LOADED IN 35 YEARS, NEVER LOADED BLACK POWDER BEFORE, FIRST PAPER PATCHES I'D EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE, A TIRED OLD MAN, BUT I CAME AWAY WITH BETTER THAN A 2 MOA FOR THE first DAY. THAT, DEAR HEARTS, IS GOOD NEWS!

With the open-heart surgery in less than a week, I probably won't be able to answer any repies to this forum. But if you want to reach me, personally, please just use my email address, oldmanriver@alltel.net.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR ALL YOUR GREAT HELP OVER THE MONTHS!

[willdixon]

HEY GUYS -

Want to see A VIDEO of my very first shot from this PEDERSOLI SHARPS QUIGLEY 50/2.50?

Want to see whether a 50/2.50 has any RECOIL OR NOT?

Check out this URL. Now, by the way, when I left my house this morning to go out to the range, I forgot my brand new, heavy-duty front rifle rest, and had to improvise with this junk, and, in my haste, I also neglected to rest the rifle on its sweet spot. BUT BIG BERTHA HERE STILL MANAGED TO SHOOT BETTER THAN 2 MOA AT 100 YARDS THIS FIRST DAY, UNDER THESE POOR CIRCUMSTANCES - NOT TOO AWFULLY BAD, HUH?

And no, the recoil LOOKS horrendous, but it was not at all. It just SHOVES YOU, it doesn't HIT YOU. No problem at all.

HERE'S THE VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aek3BGXeePg&feature=user

[Southern Son]

Good Stuff, Will. I just ordered a heap of stuff from BACO and I was ummming and ahhhing whether to buy the 540 grain .441 PP mold. I decided against it as I had already spent a fair amount, but now I really wish I had. I would luv to try PP, but money is short and a new mold is eapensive. Plus I would need the paper and all the other little bits. Hearing your success has pushed me back towards doing it.

[willdixon]

THAT'S FUNNY, SOUTHERN SON . . . .

The MAIN REASON I bought the BACO 492 mould is because I had just read a bunch of shooting reports by one of the big-shot PP BPCR shooters - I can't remember which one - and he RAVED ABOUT HIS BACO 441 OVER AND OVER. And he was posting fabulous scores at long ranges with it. And it was about the same diameter, relative to his .45 bore that the .492 mould is relative to my .50 bore.

Yes, by all means - buy the 441 if you can afford it!

And don't worry about the cost of the "paper and all the other little bits". They're nothing.

I WOULD VERY DEFINITELY GIVE MY BACO MOULD THE VERY HIGHEST SCORE, AND THE PRICE WAS ONLY $109.

Cheers!

[405]

willdixon,
That is certainly good news!!!
Yes, they do shove and make a whooom sound That recoil is different from the jolt of the big high powered, high velocity rifle jbullet loads, huh.

Best on Monday !

[willdixon]

YEAH, THIS PUSHES YOU HARD, BUT IT'S NOT A SHARP HURTING HAMMER BLOW HARD LIKE MY .460 WEATHERBY MAGNUM USED TO BE. That sucker was a killer!

The second finger on my right hand DID get hit by the back of the lever twice, during recoil, but that shooting bench was very cramped and way too short, and my makeshift rifle supports were rickety. I could not hold the rifle properly at all - as you can see in the video and photos. That won't happen again.

Plus, next time, incidentally, I'll be moving out to 200 yards, as far as you can shoot at that particular rifle range.

Thank you for your kind words about Monday.

Later....