8x58R from 45/90 brass?

[FAsmus]

Leadman;

I personally would hesitate to shoot your Varget load..

F: Roger all that and thanks.

I was (reliably?) informed that these actions were originally made for black, then re-barreled and re-heat-treated for the 8mm round. Now you're telling me that none-the-less they are coming apart?

L: To help the case necks center in the large chamber neck area I leave some of the flared neck to center the neck and also act as a seal to keep the gases forward of the case.

F: Yes, that is kind of what I have found. My way is to size only the very first part of the neck, leaving about 0.150 of the neck untouched by the die. It is the way I pretty much eliminated the gas blow-back and smoked cases. However, the unsized case does need a little encouragement to fully chamber, even when shooting something like 22 grains of 4759 instead of the Varget combination. Enter my 8 oz soft-blow - two quite light taps close the breech perfectly with no stress on my hands.

L: Engraving the front of the boolit into the rifling is something I try to avoid also. With the damage and arthritis in my hands it is easier for me to load so the boolit is a couple thousands off the rifling. I did experiment one time with nose engraving but it did not result in smaller groups so don't do it anymore.

F: I've done this pretty much for my entire cast bullet shooting career - but I wouldn't describe the technique as "engraving". ~ "Touching" would be more like it. Here in the 8x56R the ogive just barley touches the origin of rifling. I almost have to use a magnifying glass to see where it is just beginning to touch.

L: To increase the size of the boolit coming from your you can cast a couple boolits from each cavity and make a paste of Comet or other abrasive cleaner and coat the boolit lightly with this (keep it off the gas check shank) and spin it in the cavity a bit with a slow drill of screwdriver on a screw turned into the boolit base. Keep hand pressure on the handles as you are turning the boolit. Should cut .001" in a short time so check often.

F: I have heard of this procedure - but never found it necessary. Here, the LEE 8mm "Max" drops from the mold at 0.3255 and the largest 8mm lube die I have is 0.325 - so I'm stuck with these sizes unless I wish to get real serious, buy more tools and do all the stuff necessary to get them working.

Now I like the rifle alright, but I don't intend for it to become a real "project" gun.

With your cautions and my dislike of the powerful recoil of the Varget combination I intend to go on back to the almost-as-good 4759 load.

Good afternoon, Forrest

[17nut]

If a hard boolit is not sealing the bore the pressure in the case and chamber will be lower than if the boolit had sealed the bore completely. One thing you might change is after the cases are fireformed do not use the full length sizer die to size the neck. I use an 8 X 57 Mauser Lee collet die. This way the shoulder is not touched at all along with the case body. I have found with several of my old rifles that the full length die will size the body and possibly the shoulder areas. You might want to check before and after case dimensions.

A member here posted some time back that he way using 338 Win Mag. brass to make the 8X 58RD from. I found a few of these cases yesterday in my garage and it does appear they can be converted. I have put them aside for later.

When I form 45-70 to 8 X 58 RD I do not anneal but make short length passes and this seems to form the brass well with no wrinkles. We used to do this when reforming metal in a hydraulic press at work and it made a better end product than reforming the metal in one pass.

Here's one i did as an experiment from a 300WM.
The rim is marginal at best and much to my surprise it works positive in my Swedish 89RB and my Danish 89KJ

This is how far i could size it (as is):



Up in the lathe for some minor turning:


Some more lubing and sizing the last part (actually mostly moving the shoulder)
Top 300WM
Middle the bastard
Bottom a Norma 89 cartridge



If you can get the donors as range scrap then this venture is well worth while, as 7mm, 300WM and 338WM works equally well.

[FAsmus]

17nut:

Wow!

Your basic case and all the procedures are completely new stuff for me! Impressive from start to finish..

Here, for me I hope my serious case-forming days are over: I have 85 good cases made from the 45/90 basic brass and from the amount of shooting I've done with the Swede they should last until I can no longer see the sights.

As a follow-up I would be quite interested in the loads you have found successful in your rifles.

Good afternoon, Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Since this thread was active my 8x58R shooting took a sabbatical over the whole summer. ~ I had other rifles to shoot over our course and I was having issues with the marginal sighting system installed on the Rolling Block.

The Redfield base modification (below in this thread) worked OK for extended elevations but it didn't help the eye-relef problems associated with the way things were set up for an externally-adjustable scope. No matter what I did all the scopes I have except my old steel-tube 10X Weaver could not be mounted far enough back for me to see the field properly unless I got all scrunched up - and the 10X Weaver (good once a zero was set) would not repeat previously established range settings over the 10 distances we have set up for long range shooting.

Then, the weather got pretty cold around here. I got to thinking about sights. I tossed the modified Redfield base, took a new Weaver base, drilled some new holes through it such that it extended about an inch past the breech end of the barrel. Then I mounted a new Leopold 4x scope way back there where I had decent eye relief at last. This works. The Roller is back on the line.

Now if it would just go above zero for a little while I can give it the whole work out.

Good morning Forrest

[17nut]

17nut:

Wow!

Your basic case and all the procedures are completely new stuff for me! Impressive from start to finish..

Here, for me I hope my serious case-forming days are over: I have 85 good cases made from the 45/90 basic brass and from the amount of shooting I've done with the Swede they should last until I can no longer see the sights.

As a follow-up I would be quite interested in the loads you have found successful in your rifles.

Good afternoon, Forrest

Mine is full length so YMMW

I opted for Norma N202 and here are 3 groups shot at 55yds with irons and my sad old eyes:


I settled for 32grains wich gives me @1850fps and i have tried other powders and as long as i keep the speed they all give good groups.

That 8mm MAX bullet shoots so good.

[17nut]

I personally would hesitate to shoot your Varget load. These are old guns and with unknown histories. When these come apart is appears the rolling blocks break at the pin holes and the upper chunk of metal is propelled rearward, until it hits the shooter in the head/ eye area. There are pictures here that Dutchman posted or linked to showing what happens to the gun. Shooters of some of these broken guns have not survived the experience. Also easy to find them on the internet.
To help the case necks center in the large chamber neck area I leave some of the flared neck to center the neck and also act as a seal to keep the gases forward of the case.
Engraving the front of the boolit into the rifling is something I try to avoid also. With the damage and arthritis in my hands it is easier for me to load so the boolit is a couple thousands off the rifling. I did experiment one time with nose engraving but it did not result in smaller groups so don't do it anymore.
To increase the size of the boolit coming from your you can cast a couple boolits from each cavity and make a paste of Comet or other abrasive cleaner and coat the boolit lightly with this (keep it off the gas check shank) and spin it in the cavity a bit with a slow drill of screwdriver on a screw turned into the boolit base. Keep hand pressure on the handles as you are turning the boolit. Should cut .001" in a short time so check often.

Your choise, for the rest of us it's a load in the 16-18kpsi range and quite safe.

[FAsmus]

17nut;

Thanks for the post.

I don't know how to expand this picture but on your screen you may be able to do so.




Anyway - it shows the shooting at 100 yards I was able to do once the 4x scope was installed with the standard reduced load of 4759 and 8mm Max.

The next day it was cold and windy - the day after that it dropped off to -32F and stayed below freezing for the next 10 days.

Now, although it has warmed to above freezing the snow on the range is pretty deep and Christmas is upon me and mine as well.

I'll come back to this thread when I have more shooting to share.

Good evening, Forrest

[Texas by God]

Did I miss the pics of the rifle, Forrest? Best, Thomas.

[FAsmus]

Texas;

I'm working on learning how to transfer pictures.

I should be able to do it today

- F

[FAsmus]

Texas;

I had a nice big images but the Site would not allow them to post.

I hope this will help.

- F

[salpal48]

It seems That all The above advice has a Lot of quality knowledge . All that stuff cost a lot of cash and Most of all time. . I do not have a danish Krag. I would suggest Purchase the Dies . Then Just buy 20 cases from Buffalo arms. and shoot.
I do a lot of Forming . It never pays to invest in a Lot of Forming Dies.
I always like to do Things myself But there comes a time to make things simple and enjoy yourself more
You not Only will never get your money Back unless You plan on selling Them later. 20- 50 cases will last many, many Years. You will enjoy the Gun more

[17nut]

It seems That all The above advice has a Lot of quality knowledge . All that stuff cost a lot of cash and Most of all time. . I do not have a danish Krag. I would suggest Purchase the Dies . Then Just buy 20 cases from Buffalo arms. and shoot.
I do a lot of Forming . It never pays to invest in a Lot of Forming Dies.
I always like to do Things myself But there comes a time to make things simple and enjoy yourself more
You not Only will never get your money Back unless You plan on selling Them later. 20- 50 cases will last many, many Years. You will enjoy the Gun more

Unfortunatly they're Bertram brass and utter ****!
@10% split at first firing and even if annealed after every firing you're hard pressed for luck getting more than 7-8 shots out of them.

Tell me again how thats cheaper than reforming range pick ups?

7.62x54R and 8x56R is a pass through the sizing die and you're shooting.
Belted magnums need a little lathe work but still no special forming dies.

I have reformed loads of 45-90 using nothing but my CH4D dieset.
A little finess and loads of patience is the key.

[17nut]

Oh you cant say cr4p, that get beeped out.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

No short-cuts for me.

I went with 100 Starline 45/90 cases.

I tried the Buffalo forming die - it didn't work well so I got the RCBS version. This worked very well.

It was my first time at serious case-forming and I lost some but the remaining 87 are showing no signs of wearing at all.

I do not know much about the way these old rifles were chambered and throated but this one of mine has such a terrifically deep throat the the LEE 8mm Max must be seated out to the place that the only thing holding it in the case mouth is the gas-check portion of the loaded round.

Thus, if I'd tried to use 7.62x54 brass I'd have been outa luck!

- F

[salpal48]

Most of Those so called Arm Chair reloader always claim That certain Brass is no good or did not work Or a Lot of BS. . The main Reason why Thing don't work out for Them Is there own stupidity. you should do what ever you want. . If you want to Buy or make you do it.

[17nut]

Most of Those so called Arm Chair reloader always claim That certain Brass is no good or did not work Or a Lot of BS. . The main Reason why Thing don't work out for Them Is there own stupidity. you should do what ever you want. . If you want to Buy or make you do it.

Why do you call yourself stupid?

I have yet to see you demonstrate so many of the virtues you describe.
On the other hand i see a lot of ingenious members actually doing something to get shooting and posting pitures of it.
And Bertram brass is still cr4p in this thread too.

How about a little math Mr. expert?

5 bags of 20 Bertram cases 5 x $67 =$335 + 10% for the cases that split at first firing $33½ total $368½
Now a RCBS form die costs $100 and 100 Starline 45-90 cases cost $97.

Now tell me/us again how that is way better to cough up $368 for cr4ppy brass compared to $197 for the best quality?

Dont go away mad just go away, we dont want your negativity here!

[FAsmus]

Texas & 17nut;

What do you guys think of the pictures I posted?

~ If you expand them some on your screen you'll be able to see the shim I put under the rear of the scope mount. This is to enable me to shoot at longer ranges than the internal adjustment permits.

Right now its sky-obscured, moderate snow, wind NW at 20G35 @ 12 degrees F. ~ Not really good shooting conditions..

As the brass question goes let me say that once the cases were formed all I have to do is deprime/reprime and size the first 0.050 of the case necks. This is all that I need to hold the LEE 8mm Max. Case life? Indefinite..

Forrest

[17nut]

You da man!
Now you have dived into the deep end and is floating like a cork. Next time you deal out a dose of voodoo to the noobs.

Real reloading is the means to having fun at the range with weird guns and odd cartridges. That is why we are here

We are all here because we are not all there!

[leadman]

I have bought Bertram cases for other guns and found the quality lacking. The cases for the Nagant revolver won't even allow the cylinder to turn as the rim is too thick and too large in diameter. After correcting this they only lasted for a couple of reloads.
The reformed brass from Buffalo Arms from 348 Win. is working very well for me. I purchased this used from a member here along with the Lee mold. My reformed 45-70 works fine also and in my rifle still allows the boolit to be close to the rifling. I do have some 338 Win brass I intend to reform and turn the belt off of.
I'll have to take the rifle out to the range and shoot it to see how my eyes are doing with the tang sight. If I need to I'll mount a scope on it.
Looks like the OP has figured out how to make his gun shoot well and accurately. This is the end result most of us "shoot" for.

[enfield]

Bertram Brass, I only own 20, 43 Mauser cases, I annealed them before ever using them and have loaded them about 5 to 10 times ( who keeps track of this stuff anyway ). I have heard all the horror stories but I have not lost any , also the brass has been used in at least 2 different guns, or 3 or maybe even 4 ? I agree it is too expensive but I was young and foolish at the time.