8x58R from 45/90 brass?

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I have aquired a 1873 Swedish Rolling Block rebarreled by the Swedes to 8x58R.

I need brass. Wikipedia says that 8x58 cases are 2.296 over all, making 45/70 too short by quite a bit - so the 45/90 basic brass is indicated for starters.

I have turned the rims to 0.595 so that they'll work easily. How about the drastic necking necessary? I have a full set of 8x58R dies, the cases have been cut down to 2.275 over all length and I'm ready to go.

What would be the next procedure?

Thanks for any assistance.

Forrest

[EDG]

You will need a series of 2 or 3 dies to neck the case down and push the shoulder back.

Unfortunately you will probably kill a lot of 45-90 cases learning what is needed.
If you can find some junker 45-70 cases they would be good practice to develop the process before committing to the new brass.

You may have to either make the dies you need from scratch
Modify other dies
Buy the dies needed
Farm the forming work out to someone that already has the dies.

The dies used to form the .38-56 and .33 Winchester would be ideal to accomplish most of your work.
You need to inform us of what existing experience you have forming brass and what press and existing dies you have.

The critical dimension for forming your brass will be the shoulder diameter = .460 and the location of the shoulder from the rim.

Ideally you need to sort the 45-90 brass and take out any cases with defects that will be in the neck and shoulder area.
Any dented or nicked case mouths need to be expanded a little to make them round.
Other nicks or dents in the neck and shoulder area are traps for excess lube and will probably get worse if you casually form the cases. They may worse to the point of ruining the brass. Steer clear of any defects in the beginning. Be aware that Starline 45-90 brass if probably hard like other Starline cases and will need annealing.

If I were going to put together a set of dies here is what I would do
1. First size the necks in a 45-90 or .45-70 FL die
2. Check a .375 H&H FL die to see how much it will move the brass before you ruin a case. You may only be able to use the long tapered section. If you do not have this die skip it and go to the .416 Taylor in #2.
3. Consider using a Lee .416 Taylor or a 44-40 Win die body and then a .38-40 Win. to neck the case down to 40 caliber. The base of the .416 die may have to be cut off.
4 The next die to consider is the Lee die body for the .38-56 Win. This one has a lot of taper so watch out.
5. Then a .357 Automag, .358 Win or .350 Rem Mag to neck down more and continue pushing the shoulder back
6. Try your 8X58R FL die here.
7. Once your brass is formed it will need to be annealed.

The die bodies 2, 3 might have to be cut off at the base to move the shoulder back

If you have a lathe you can make the dies you need from 7/8-14 socket head cap screws or B7 hex head cap screws.
The shoulder angles should approximately match the shoulder angle of the rifle chamber. These form dies can be short and the only features they will have will be the shoulder angle and the diameter of the neck.
You would probably need the following neck diameters. The diameters should correspond to a common drill and reamer size.
.42 or so (27/64)
.38 (3/8)
.35 (23/64 or 11/32)
.33 (21/64)

If you are familiar with boring small holes with a boring bar you can make these without buying reamers.
Drill, Ream or bore and then polish with a 400 grit silicon carbide paper used wet with a light oil like WD-40.
Polish until there are no tool marks.

Anyway those are my thoughts. I tend to use more dies in order to get a 100% yield with the process.

[FAsmus]

EDG:

Thanks for the detailed response.

I'm working on first cutting off the 45/90 brass to approxumate 8x58 length and reduce the rims to 0.595 such that they'll fit the Rolling Block recessed chamber.

When this is complete I plan on annealing the necks down to something pretty darn soft and, taking your advise I'll probably anneal between sizing steps.

I wonder about some of the calibers you site as for sizing the neck - for example wouldn't things like 358 Winchester be way too small at the base for the big 45 caliber case to fit at all?

I do have 444 Marlin, 40/65 WCF and assorted 357 pistol dies in hand. Other stuff should be around town somewhere from shooting friends.

Good morning,
Forrest

[EDG]

FAsmus
You are right - the .358 and the Automag base will interfer with the larger diameter .45-90 unless the base of the die is opened.
A 40-65 or 40-82 die might help some though a 40-65 can be a problem itself.
However the .350 Rem mag would work if you are careful not to expand the case at the shoulder by too much down pressure. A .348 Win might be useful. A .33 Win die might help but it will make the shoulder smaller than necessary requiring it to blow out a little on the first firing.

I know the 44-40 and the 38-40 dies may interfere at the top too.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I have a Danish Krag in this caliber. 40-82 was my first step down. Then, 38-56, then thru the 8mm FL die. Slowly, anneal between steps, and use plenty of Imperial Sizing Die Wax. Did a hundred Starline cases, and did not lose one.

[craig61a]

I formed about 30 out of Starline 45-100 a year ago with CH4D FL die... A bit time consuming. But I got the old roller going. I'll have get a few other dies so I'll be inclined to make more...

[Tackleberry41]

Do you really need the intermediary dies? First ones I formed were 577/450 from 24ga brass, pretty drastic difference. I just slowly screw the die in a bit at a time, moving the shoulder back as I go. I lose a few here and there, you get a kink that first pass thru the press rounding over the end, might as well toss it. Never comes out, just gets worse as you go along.

[leadman]

I have one of the RBs in 8X58R also. Just to try it I reformed a couple of 45-70 to 8X58R and loaded them with the Lee 8mm Karabiner. The cases reformed easily with a couple of short strokes of the handle and the C&H full length die. Shot good with no issues even with the short neck.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Thanks for the information.

At the moment I'm still working on shortening up the cases and turning rims. Next will initial annealing and I'll go to work.

I'll post with details as they come along.

Good morning,
Forrest

[257]

have you tried buffalo arm's for new brass

[FAsmus]

257:

Oh yes! I have 50 45/90 in process.

Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Update on the case-forming procedure is like this;

I had a Buffalo Arms 8x58R die set and tried working two cases through it without additional forming dies. ~ Results were marginal. The cases formed alright by careful squeezing at the top of my press's travel after being annealed.

The trouble was that they look pretty crummy - apparent hair-line grooves all around the circumference of the necks. I figure these may very well crack and fail when I shoot them.

Then I borrowed a set of RCBS 8x58R dies from a fellow shooter here in town. I didn't think the different manufacturer would make any difference but I tried them anyway. ~ I also thought more carefully about my annealing procedure.

First I deepened the water, then, I marked the cases with a Sharpie marker at the point where the taper began on a finished case.

Then, taking my little tiny Burnz-o-Matic I heated the case neck, not starting at the mouth but at the place where the shoulder would be on the finished case.

The tiny torch flame, being pointed, permits me to aim it exactly where the shoulder would be and rotating it around and around so-as to heat the case neck evenly. The heat naturally travels up the neck until it evenly turns the proper shade of blue all over while the head remains safe underwater.

When things are right I tip the case over to quench and begin the sizing operations ~ Things are now going well ~ no more beginning cracks in the necks and the whole thing is progressing nicely.

Here is a shot of my bench and the first ten completed cases ~



Good morning,
Forrest

[EDG]

The annealing got rid of the squiggles on your necks?

[FAsmus]

EDG:

In a word - yes.

The appearance is greatly improved and since the weather is improving I'll load today for shooting on Saturday.

The Load will be with the LEE 240 grain 8mm "Max" .. are there any loads out there for the 8x58?

Forrest

[EDG]

Are you aware of the Dutchman's cautions about this round?

http://dutchman.rebooty.com/8x58rd.html

[FAsmus]

EDG:

Thanks for the post.

I have data from this particular rifle as it was loaded by its previous owner as follows:

150 Speer - 60 gr 4931 = 2520 ft/sec

150 Speer - 51 gr 3031 = 2798 ft/sec

LEE 8mm "Max" 240 gr 34 gr 4198 = 1965 ft/sec

LEE 8mm "Max" 240 gr 28 gr 5744 = 1835 ft/sec

As you can see this fellow believed that the re-worked action was fully capible of taking full-house jacketed loads! - And he lived to tell about it.

I am FAR more concervative in my approach!

The LEE bullet seems to be the only cast bullet long enough to reach the origin of rifling, so it'll be my bullet of choice.

I don't have any 5744 but I do understand 4198 and 4759 quite well.

The initial case forming load I have chosen is the LEE over 31 gr 4198, mostly because I have plenty of it and 4759 is no longer in production.

I do not plan on ever shooting jacketed through this old piece, let alone full-tilt loads of any kind.

Good morning,
Forrest

[EDG]

You might snoop around and find an 8lb jug of SR4759 before it is all gone. I found one back in the summer.
I wished I had the cash to buy several.

EDG:
The initial case forming load I have chosen is the LEE over 31 gr 4198, mostly because I have plenty of it and 4759 is no longer in production.

I do not plan on ever shooting jacketed through this old piece, let alone full-tilt loads of any kind.

Good morning,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

EDG;

I have't seen an 8-pounder of 4759 for quite a few years.

I did buy some several 1-pound containers over the past few months - it'll have to do.

The 240 gr LEE 8mm 'Max' is quite long, but even it has only the GC and one band of full diameter seated in the neck. This makes the overall cartridge length exactly one full inch longer than the length of the case itself!

This makes the cartridge 3.305 - just long enough to leave a witness mark on the (oversize) nose.

I'll tell what I find out on the firing line tomorrow.

Good evening,
Forrest

[ascast]

EDG thanks for posting that info. I plan to get my D-krag shooting someday. That is not the only mis-print in Barnes CoW book

thanks again
ascast

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Yesterday I mounted an old target-grade scope on the old Rolling Block and headed for the range for some serious load-development work.

I worked with 4759, 4198, 4895 and Varget. ~ All with the 240 gr LEE 8mm 'Max'.

The relatively light loads of 4759 shot poorly - showing terrible vertical stringing.

Turning to 4198 the light load of 27 grains did better than 4759 but then I moved to 28.5 grains of 4198 and things improved dramatically. Still, even this load showed marked signs of gas leakage - moderate bullet grease blow-back on the cases due to low pressure.

On, to 28.3 grains 4895 I was amazed to find my first shots missing the big target entirely. I shortly found that they were printing a foot lower than the previous 4198 load - well off the paper. I caught 5 rounds only, these showed a semi-promising group.

The Varget @ 29 grains did fairly well - giving me the most hope of all.

All around it seems to me that there is something about this case design that favors the medium-speed powders at moderate levels.

I plan on carefully moving up in 4198 and Varget, hoping to get something reliable before summer really gets here.

Forrest