Pressure Differences Between Hodgdon Triple Seven's ffg vs. fffg

[Don McDowell]

5 lbs of goex is 25$ (125) a lb delivered to your door. That's not a lot of powder.
Northern California is full of bpcr shooters that need more than one pound of powder just to load enough to shoot a days match..

[RPRNY]

T7 is not Black Powder. Is is a substitute for black powder and it substitutes at @ 15% more powerful than black powder equivalent. So, 20 grs of FFFg T7 is equivalent to 23grs FFFg Holy Black. T7 FFFg is a very regular and dense grain compared to Holy Black. Thus, it will compress more readily. 20 grs of T7 FFFg is equivalent to 23 grs of Holy Black and will readily compress to the equivalent of less than 20 grs Holy Black. When heavily compressed, T7 FFFg delivers pressure spikes.

When loading cartridge, as with Holy Black, air space between T7 and bullet base is bad. It will generally take more T7 FFFg to fill a given volume of space than it will of FFFg Holy Black. 35 grs of T7 will fill less space than 35 grs Holy Black but is the equivalent of 40 grs Holy Black. 40 grs FFFg black powder was the original load in the 45 long Colt. By 1875 that had backed down towards 35 grs because it was awfully heavy.

In a cartridge, one is likely to over load T7 FFFg, or over-compress it. Both unsafe according to Hodgdon. If one does neither, FFFg T7 has a propensity to compact. This could create an airspace between bullet and powder. That is deemed bad.

Thus, T7 FFFg in cartridges is dangerous for several reasons. So, Hodgdon's' s law firm wants that made very clear.

[oldred]

5 lbs of goex is 25$ (125) a lb delivered to your door. That's not a lot of powder.
Northern California is full of bpcr shooters that need more than one pound of powder just to load enough to shoot a days match..

I just in the last couple of weeks pointed out this very same thing to a fella who brought his ML to my shop to have a stuck breechplug removed (we wound up drilling the dang thing out!) and he told me he shoots Pyrodex exclusively. When I explained why BP was a lot better he told me that he would love to shoot BP but can't find it anywhere, pointing out that ordering it was simple enough he came back with the usual reply that he would have to buy too much at a time. I once thought the same thing but shooting the subs was so unappealing to me I went ahead and ordered a minimum order, I was surprised at how soon it was time to reorder but after looking at how often I would have been buying it a pound at a time I shouldn't have been surprised. BP will last FOREVER! So the people who think they will only be buying a pound or so each season and it's so convenient to pick up at Walmart just buy the minimum order and you won't have to buy powder again for years! I don't understand why someone would pay hundreds of dollars for a firearm but balk at spending a bit over a hundred for ammo, especially when they will still be spending the same amount but just spread out over time.

BTW, I gave that fella a half can of Goex FFG so he could try the real McCoy and that weekend he called me back and he now wants to get on the share list for our next order!

[Don McDowell]

oldred, that's an excellent example.

[hylander]

Here you are only allowed #1 of real black in your home.
So I can't legally have any more at one time.
I may see if I have a few guys here that want to split up an order.

[montana_charlie]

Here you are only allowed #1 of real black in your home.

If a guy has a flintlock rifle with a can of fffg for his main charge, and a can of ffffg for priming, he is a criminal.

I find that astonishing ...

CM

[dtknowles]

I just in the last couple of weeks pointed out this very same thing to a fella who brought his ML to my shop to have a stuck breechplug removed (we wound up drilling the dang thing out!) and he told me he shoots Pyrodex exclusively. When I explained why BP was a lot better he told me that he would love to shoot BP but can't find it anywhere, pointing out that ordering it was simple enough he came back with the usual reply that he would have to buy too much at a time. I once thought the same thing but shooting the subs was so unappealing to me I went ahead and ordered a minimum order, I was surprised at how soon it was time to reorder but after looking at how often I would have been buying it a pound at a time I shouldn't have been surprised. BP will last FOREVER! So the people who think they will only be buying a pound or so each season and it's so convenient to pick up at Walmart just buy the minimum order and you won't have to buy powder again for years! I don't understand why someone would pay hundreds of dollars for a firearm but balk at spending a bit over a hundred for ammo, especially when they will still be spending the same amount but just spread out over time.

BTW, I gave that fella a half can of Goex FFG so he could try the real McCoy and that weekend he called me back and he now wants to get on the share list for our next order!

Please explain again why Black Powder is a lot better than Subs. Are you blaming Pryodex for his stuck breach plug? I have part of two cans of BP(2f and 3f) and part of a can of Pryodex and a whole can of 777. That will last me for years. As far as being frugal about ammo after spending hundreds on a Gun. If I am careful about my gun purchases I can recoup my investment and maybe even make a little if I sell it. What I spend on ammo is usually gone with no recovery. I only have one powder that I have 5 pounds or more of and that is because I just bought an 8 pound jug. I think it is only the third time I have bought a large quantity of a single powder. I had an 8 pound jug of Green Dot (down to a couple pounds) and before that it was an 8 pound jug of 231 (down to a pound or so). Each lasted a decade. I like shooting a cap and ball revolver or a Hawken or such every once in a while but some years I don't shoot either if I am busy with other shooting interests. Anyone think that 3f 777 would not be an excellent powder to use in my Ruger Old Army. I can only load and shoot it so fast so that jug should last quite a while once I get around to breaking it out. I certainly will run out of caps first, anyone know were to get a deal on them?

Tim

[Nobade]

Heck, if I take the kids and friends out to shoot the Old Army I can go through a pound of powder in an afternoon. That's only 175 shots after all. And this is one reason why I started making my own.... it's about $3/lb to make.

I just got back from Sportsman's Warehouse. A pound of Pyrodex is $27, pound of T7 is $32 and 10 oz of Blackhorn is $37 all plus tax. Ouch! Old "E" is $16 including shipping and haz mat if you buy a case, and if you're not in Arkansas there's no tax. Big difference if you shoot a lot.

-Nobade

[dtknowles]

Heck, if I take the kids and friends out to shoot the Old Army I can go through a pound of powder in an afternoon. That's only 175 shots after all. And this is one reason why I started making my own.... it's about $3/lb to make.

I just got back from Sportsman's Warehouse. A pound of Pyrodex is $27, pound of T7 is $32 and 10 oz of Blackhorn is $37 all plus tax. Ouch! Old "E" is $16 including shipping and haz mat if you buy a case, and if you're not in Arkansas there's no tax. Big difference if you shoot a lot.

-Nobade

See, what works for one person does not work for another. If I take the Old Army out, I will be shooting by myself and will have other guns that I will shoot as well. I doubt I would shoot 50 rounds thru it in a single trip to the range more like 30. I bought the jug of 777 more than 5 years ago (I paid less than $20 for each jugs/cans of BP and Subs I have purchased) and it is still unopened. I have had the Old Army at the range just a couple times right after I bought it. It shot nice, I am glad I bought it and I want to have supplies to shoot it again if I get the urge but one pound of powder is enough. Making my own powder might be interesting but I expect there would be a learning curve and much testing required. I have enough projects without adding another.

The reason I don't order bunch of BP is that I just don't want the have that much more powder around, a case would probably last me the rest of my life. I have a bunch of smokeless powder because I overreacted to the chicken littles around this forum and bought too much powder, it will take me decades to use what I have. I shoot almost every week for a couple hours but I don't go thru a lot of ammo. Lately I have been shooting mostly .22 Hornet, 30 BR and .22 LR all with lead bullets. The .22 Hornet Green Dot loads are more than 2000 rounds per pound of power and the BLC2 loads for the 30 BR are like 200 per pound. I used to buy a new jug of powder when my jugs were getting low or when I saw a good deal like the 8 pound jug of Green Dot. I started using it in everything is was good for, like 9 x 19, midrange loads for .357 mag. cast loads for 30-30, 7.62 x 25 and the .22 Hornet. 10 years later I still have a couple pounds left.

Tim



Tim

[country gent]

In cap and ball revolvers and pistols a pound of powder does last longer and buying a pound or two is a supply. When loading for the rifle cartridges that same pound isnt near the supply you think it is. In my 45-90 a pound of powder is about 80 rounds. The 45-80 is just over 100 rds and the 40-65 is around 130 or so. When you get into the bigger rounds it goes even faster. A 50-120 or 140 or a 45-120 will eat powder at an alarming rate. If you can get enough friends club embers together you can put together an order min or maybe even a level for the price breaks. Our local club does this occassionaly with reloading components for trap and skeet, rifle and pistol components. A large order ad decent breaks on prices doing this.

[Gunlaker]

Yeah we all have different needs for sure. I've never tried a substitute because I can get the real thing.

A pound of black powder can last me more than a month if I'm shooting my little .32-40's and loading at the bench ( which really slows things down ). On the other hand, with the .45-90, or .45-110's a pound goes away in a very short period of time .

Chris.

[dtknowles]

I see a lot of people suggest splitting a shipment of powder with a group. That is easy if someone else does the work. Nobody ever has asked me if I would like to get in on a group buy for Powder of any kind. There are a few guys that shoot at the same range that I know by name and talk to when we are there together. I have never seen them shoot anything with black powder. I know four guys from work that I have gone with and I know that one has a Ruger Old Army and I bought two basket case side lock muzzle loaders off him when I got a couple thousand primers from him as I was short and he really stocked up in the Clinton scare (this deal was during the Bush years). We have not shot together in a long time. Putting together a group buy would be so much effort that I would just buy the powder myself if I wanted it that bad. Seeing some BP Sub on the shelf for a reasonable price while shopping for other stuff can cause me to make an impulse buy, that's how I got the 777 and I am not sorry. I cleaned up and assembled (yes they were true basket cases, box of parts) those basket case Muzzle Loaders, tested them and took them to the range a couple times shot them with the powder I had (Goex 2f and 3f) they are in the safe now and waiting for their turn again.

Tim

[country gent]

A lot of gunshops you have to ask for black powder its not on display

[oldred]

Please explain again why Black Powder is a lot better than Subs. Are you blaming Pryodex for his stuck breach plug? I have part of two cans of BP(2f and 3f) and part of a can of Pryodex and a whole can of 777. That will last me for years. As far as being frugal about ammo after spending hundreds on a Gun. If I am careful about my gun purchases I can recoup my investment and maybe even make a little if I sell it. What I spend on ammo is usually gone with no recovery. I only have one powder that I have 5 pounds or more of and that is because I just bought an 8 pound jug. I think it is only the third time I have bought a large quantity of a single powder. I had an 8 pound jug of Green Dot (down to a couple pounds) and before that it was an 8 pound jug of 231 (down to a pound or so). Each lasted a decade. I like shooting a cap and ball revolver or a Hawken or such every once in a while but some years I don't shoot either if I am busy with other shooting interests. Anyone think that 3f 777 would not be an excellent powder to use in my Ruger Old Army. I can only load and shoot it so fast so that jug should last quite a while once I get around to breaking it out. I certainly will run out of caps first, anyone know were to get a deal on them?

Tim

Where did I even hint that I was blaming the Pyodex for the breech plug?? As far as BP being better well we could go on for pages over that so let's just say that I should have said that "In my opinion" BP is a lot better and just leave it at that! As far as someone having part of 2 cans of BP and a whole can of a sub with that being enough to last for years then yes indeed if someone doesn't shoot anymore than that then it makes a lot of sense to just buy one of the subs at Walmart and I have agreed several times in the past with those folks that it probably is too much trouble and expense to order real BP.

I feel kind of sorry for those who can only shoot a pound or so of powder a year but of course as long as they have fun doing so it don't matter much what kind of powder they are using!

[ascast]

SS - NO, no-one knows for sure, not even the folks that make it. I'd guess something happened or was indicated could happen, and they could not figure out how, or why, so they cover their backside with warnings. It is not likely they will tell YOU anything over the phone about an in house , proprietary issue.
good question
be safe

[Lead pot]

There is a guy that is a shooter at our range mostly shooting his .22 hornet and hand gun. Every fall a week or so before Deer season he comes with a nice .54 TC Renegade and takes a few shots to check his sights and puts the rifle back in the case and shoots the .22 Hornet for the rest of the time.
A couple years ago I saw him just before the season with a shot gun setting the scope for 100 yards. I walked over and talked to him and I asked where is the TC? not using it this year? he said I made a lamp out of it. why I asked, well last year after I got the deer and when I got home I put a quick patch down the bore and oiled it and went up for supper. I forgot to do a good cleaning before putting it in the closet. Well the bore rusted so bad that it felt like I had sand paper in it. I scrubbed it for an hour and it would still pull the patch off my cleaning rod jag so I used steel wool and penetrating oil and it did get better but it just would not shoot like it did.
He said I used to use DuPont but I wanted to try some of this new Pyrodex that everyone is talking about.

[dtknowles]

I have agreed several times in the past with those folks that it probably is too much trouble that it probably is too much trouble and expense to order real BP.

I feel kind of sorry for those who can only shoot a pound or so of powder a year but of course as long as they have fun doing so it don't matter much what kind of powder they are using!

Ordering a case of BP online is barely any trouble or expense for me. Having 4 pounds of Black Powder that I may never use seems foolish. "Kind of feel sorry" that would be like me saying that "I kind of feel sorry for people who have to shoot rifles of ancient design using an obsolete propellant." I shoot many pounds of powder every year, just not Black Powder. The .22 Hornet and 30 BR may sip propellant but the 30-06 and 25 Krag Ackley Improved burn it at a much higher rate, not to mention all the other rifles I have in the safe. Save your pity for starving children in Africa. Yeah, I know your chosen minor firearm pursuit is superior to all others! anyone not shooting Black Powder is just a plebe.

Tim

[Don McDowell]

Not sure of anybody that thinks folks that don't shoot black is just a plebe.
But I am pretty sure the folks wonder if a person doesn't shoot black then other than having some need for attention when they post in a black powder forum?

[dtknowles]

Not sure of anybody that thinks folks that don't shoot black is just a plebe.
But I am pretty sure the folks wonder if a person doesn't shoot black then other than having some need for attention when they post in a black powder forum?

How much Black Powder does one have to shoot to qualify to post here. I shoot some Black Powder most years, last year it was probably around 4000 grains not counting Subs but that is because I won't shoot anything but black in my 450 BPE double rifle and I shot a couple boxes of reloads in it. Not sure I will shoot it this year, I have my loads developed and sitting on the shelf. That is why I am low on BP and have been following threads on BP and Subs and where to get BP. If I don't find some at a gun show soon I might have to order a case even though a pound would be enough.

Tim

[Don McDowell]

You likely won't find any blackpowder at a Gunshow. Why order a case, when you can get 5 lbs? Why not just call over to Doyline and ask them where the closest place you can buy a pound of powder over the counter is?