Pressure Differences Between Hodgdon Triple Seven's ffg vs. fffg

[Southern Shooter]

Does anyone know what are the pressure differences are between Hodgdon Triple Seven's ffg and fffg?? Does anyone know what pressures these two generate, at all?? This would be from a .45 Colt with a 265 grain boolit.

I am just trying to understand why the fffg version is not supposed to be used in cartridges.

Thanks

[Don McDowell]

I am just trying to understand why the fffg version is not supposed to be used in cartridges.

Thanks

For answers beyond what Hogdons has to say here.
Triple Seven In Cartridges: Use data specifically developed for Triple Seven FFG only. Cartridge loads should be used exactly as listed in this pamphlet. You may safely use a card or polyethylene wad up to .030" in thickness to protect the base of the bullet. Loading density should be 100% with light compression not to exceed .100". Testing has shown that Triple Seven will perform best when the bullet just touches the powder. Allow no airspace between the base of the bullet and the powder. Do not reduce loads by means of filler wads or inert filler material such as Grits, Dacron or Grex. Do not heavily compress powder charges. The use of filler wads, inert fillers or heavy compression may cause a dangerous situation, which could cause injury and/or death to the shooter, bystanders or damage property. Do not create loads for cartridges not listed. Contact Hodgdon Powder Company for recommendations concerning other loads. *See WARNINGS below.

You would be well advised to call them and ask.

[Southern Shooter]

I did call them. They were very polite. The answer I received was just that they did not like the pressures when using fffg in cartridges. But, that does not satisfy my curiousity. I am looking for more than generic answers. What are the numbers? Why? What happened? What were the conditions?, etc.

[Don McDowell]

The people that make the stuff tell you not to do it, yet you still don't want to take their answer?? Maybe it's best you take up tennis or some such before you end up hurting yourself or worse some innocent bystander because " that does not satisfy my curiousity".

[Southern Shooter]

Be polite and give me more credit than that. I am considerate of those around me when I shoot. And, curiousity does not mean someone is going to do something other than ask lots of question...or, do you go blindly on what is always told to you. Anyway, people are far more in danger when I am swinging a tennis racquet than when I am at the range.

[Don McDowell]

Well maybe if Hogdons telling you they didn't like the pressure spikes wasn't good enough, you should invest in the RSI pressure trace system and see if you see things that might be cause for concern... Good lord do you also question Alliant as to why you can't just use enough Bullseye to just touch the bullet base?

[Southern Shooter]

Gee, DM...having a rough day in Wyoming? And, it has been nice meeting you, too. It is a terrible plight...wanting to learn the whys of the world.

Oh, and yes, Alliant has answered a lot of questions for me...Lee Precision has...Tom at Accurate Molds has...John Linebaugh has...etc.. And, all answers were shared with patience and kindness. I like asking questions and learning.

[Lead pot]

Don.

Some people ask questions and get answers then argue because they want a reason to use or do it anyway. Even when the manufacturer warns them not to use or do it they still look for someone to tell them that it's ok. Then they have a reason to lay the blame on them when the damage is done.
Then you get people that say I been doing it for years with out a problem. Some come up with ways that makes me wonder if they ever did lower a loading press handle in their life or even use black powder or shoot a black powder gun.

[Don McDowell]

Yup..

[John Boy]

The answer I received was just that they did not like the pressures when using fffg in cartridges. But, that does not satisfy my curiousity. I am looking for more than generic answers. What are the numbers? Why? What happened? What were the conditions?, etc.

SS, RSI system will give you all you need to know about PSI's ... http://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm ... $800 for the package
All I know about Triple Seven FFg is I used it twice: a 30-30 Hodgdon approved load in 2001 and a 45-70 load in 2004. Both about ripped my face off from felt recoil. That was enough for me using this powder

[Southern Shooter]

Lead Pot, I am not sure if you are referring to me, but I have not been argumetative. Nor, am I looking to justify using the powder when it is clearly not a good idea. I just wanted to learn from people who know more than me. I will never apologize for asking questions to learn and not being satisfied with a brush-off answer.

Where is the civility that drew me to this site?

[cajun shooter]

It's still here Southern Shooter, but in this case you are barking up the wrong tree. If you want something beyond what you received from the makers of the powder, then your next stop is a testing lab that does pressure testing of gun loads.
Don is a very nice man who has years of time behind the butt of rifles that shoot the real BP and not some sub powder made to imitate.
I myself have never understood why persons ask about subs on a BP forum anyway. They have nothing in common other than the subs have a chemical added to make "FAKE SMOKE" Why don't you ask the staff to open sub powder section. That way you would be with the group that has like values in your shooting choice. Why come to a BP forum and then chastise the member who took time to answer your posting? Take Care Fairshake

[Southern Shooter]

Cajun,
I agree. I debated where to go with this in the first place. It seems like such a misfit powder.

I do want express my gratitude for this site. It is a great teaching source and a good place to meet swell folks.

[hylander]

I can't answer the Op's original question.
However I would like to comment on the "why ask about subs in a BP forum".
I shoot almost only Subs, mostly 777.
One reason is Real Black is Very hard to come by around here, I also have other reasons.
Just because someone shoots subs once in awhile does not make them an outcast.
There are no Forums that I know of dedicated to subs, so that leaves a person with questions on subs
to ask questions in the BP forum.
There are a lot of BP shooters that also shoot subs, so sub shooters look for answers here.
In reading the Op's post's it is pretty clear that he is just looking for info to learn, not to get an answer to justify some agenda.
I to like to learn the why's and not just settle for an answer "Because I said so".
Again not because I have an agenda, I just want to know the why's.

[montana_charlie]

In reading the Op's post's it is pretty clear that he is just looking for info to learn, not to get an answer to justify some agenda.

This 'search for knowledge' about fffg Triple 7 has turned into somewhat of a saga that covers (at least) three separate threads.
He wants to use fffg in a ffg application.

Why does he want to? Perhaps something from one of the other threads sheds light on that.

When the drought of powders was in full swing creativity had to be used. And, the store near my home came into a load of Triple Seven and I bought 4 lbs. of it to experiment with.

See, he made a mistake when he bought that granulation and now he wants it to stop being a mistake.

I to like to learn the why's and not just settle for an answer "Because I said so".
Again not because I have an agenda, I just want to know the why's.

If you read all of the associated threads you will find that there is no "I" who is telling him not to use fffg in a cartridge.
The manufacturer says it should not be done, and they didn't back off from that when he contacted them.

I did call them. They were very polite. The answer I received was just that they did not like the pressures when using fffg in cartridges. But, that does not satisfy my curiousity. I am looking for more than generic answers. What are the numbers? Why? What happened? What were the conditions?, etc.

As you can see, he is determined to find somebody who will agree with him that it's okay to use the fffg in his cartridges.

So far, I don't see you mentioning any experience in that area ... experience that refutes the manufacturer.

I don't either so I have not offered any advice ... but I am tempted to tell him to strap a gun or two to some tires and use a long string to see if they blow up.

CM

[Lead Fred]

I tired just about every sub in the flinter and the 45/70.
None worked worth a darn, and no where as good as holy black.

[Southern Shooter]

Montana Charlie,
I don't, nor would anyone else, appreciate the condescending attitude. In stead of bashing me and talking about me in the third-person for a persistent question, why not ask what my line of thinking is so we can connect and I can be taught something other than to accept a brush-off response.

Seriously...drop it. Please.

I am a bit surprised at the hostile response and assumptions made for asking a question.

I am just trying to understand why the fffg version is not supposed to be used in cartridges.

This was a sincere request to be taught by people who are interested in sharing their knowledge and not beating up someone. I like to understand beyond the "because I said so" answers. Teach me some chemistry, physics...share some experiences. Or, admit that the answer is not known. But, heck fire, stop the negativity.

FYI:
I was fortunate to be able to make an equal swap, this week. My 3 lbs of FFFg to local muzzle loader for 3 lbs of FFg.

I am done with this. Time to move on to another topic.

Thank you

[Don McDowell]

One reason is Real Black is Very hard to come by around here, I also have other reasons.

Where is it you live? FedEx, and UPS deliver just about everywhere inside the lower 48, and Powder Inc, Grafs, Buffalo Arms and a whole host of other vendors will send you from 5-50 lbs per order...

[cajun shooter]

Don, I was just about to ask Hylander if he had a mailing address and to tell him that I've heard that statement from every person I've ever asked about sub use.
When I was a Police Officer, the common answer to , How many drinks have you had tonight Sir, was always 2. We would make bets on how fast they said two.
The most common answer to not shooting BP is that it's hard to purchase in my area as no one sells it.
You gave my standard answer. Later David

PS If y'all read all the postings by those who run things, you will find where it covers this very subject. If they have enough request about having a new subject matter, they will address it. It does not say they will start one but it will be looked at.

[hylander]

I live in northern California.
There is one shop about 25 miles away that sells real black, however his prices are to high.
I don't shoot enough to buy bulk to make it worth paying for shipping and hazmat.
Also I'm pretty sure here you are only allowed #1 of real black in your house.