45 Special

[Char-Gar]

It has been several weeks since I have been able to get out to the shooting range. Bad weather and bad roads keep me going there. I was at last able to try out my 45 Special Cowboy round. This is a special case made by Star Line which is nothing more than a 45 ACP case with a 45 Colt rim. It works to perfection in single action cylinders chambered for the 45 ACP round. This enable the case to headspace on the rim instead of the case mouth, thus allowing the use of bullet held by a roll crimp.

I loaded some of this brass up with 452423 a Keith 240 grain SWC over 4.5 grains of Bulleye with the case mouth roll crimped in the crimp groove of the bullet. While not a hot load, it is not a wimp either. It has a nice snappy recoil and the Keith bullets hit with authority.

The bullets were sized .452 for use in the .453 throats of my U.S. Ptn. F.A. single action. In spite of the very small sights and my 72 years old eyes, I was able to turn in nice round 5 shot groups at 25 yards that shot to the sights. The groups ran 2.5 to 2.75 inches at 25 yards which is about all I can do shooting two handed standing. Considering the sights I was delighted with this.

Clean up was a snap with a bore brush and Ed's Red. All that was in the gun was the usual powder and lube trash, no leading.

Next week I will try the same load in the 45 ACP cylinder of my Lipsey's 45 Flattop. These throats run .452 and the round will chamber fine although they require a little encouragement from my thumb the last little bit as the front driving band entered the same size throat.

All in all I am quite encouraged with the results on my first outing with the 45 Special. Here is the pistol;

[44 Special]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting that.

[bedbugbilly]

I don't have my reloading manuals with me to check casing specs so will ask . .

The "special" casings that you mention by Star Line - are they not the same as the 45 Auto Rim casing or are they different?

Sounds like you had a great time and found a great combination to shoot! Nothing like some good 'ol single action fun!

Also - what die are you using to put the roll crimp on those?

The reason I'm interested is that I'm looking at getting a Uberti SAA in 45 and have given some consideration to getting the combination model with the 45 Colt cylinder and 45ACP cylinder. Just don't know if I would shoot the ACP cylinder that much to justify the combination model but from your post, I can see where it has a lot of potential and might be fun to have.

Thanks Char Gar! Interesting post! Hope to hear more of your fun with this combination!

[Nueces]

The Cowboy 45 Specials are designed as short 45 Colt cases, to be fired in 45 Colt chambers. The case rims are 45 Colt rims, not the thicker Auto Rim ones. They are the lame length as 45 ACP or 45 Auto Rim. Because of the nearness in case diameter, they can easily be loaded with ACP dies and crimped with Auto Rim roll crimp dies for use in single action ACP cylinders. You can't make Special cases from the Auto Rim because the Auto Rim has a deeply chamfered rear face, so thinning the rim from the front would leave but a vestigial rim for headspacing.

I think they're as cool as the other side of the pillow in my Ruger Flat Top 45. It lets us go the other way from using fluffy powders in big cases - use instead regular powders in a smaller case.

I have an old RCBS Auto Rim roll crimp die, but Redding also makes their Profile Crimp die for the AR. Dillon may make their AccuCrimp for it, too.

[Char-Gar]

Bedbug.... Nueces is correct about the difference between Auto Rim cases and 45 Special. The AR rim is thicker and while they work in Colt and S&W da six guns they won't work in sa six guns.

I use a 45 Colt she'll holder and 45ACP dies. I have both Lyman and Rcbs 45ACP dies and they both roll crimp in the seating die.

[bedbugbilly]

Ahhh! Thank you! That makes sense and I greatly appreciate your explanation! So basically the "Special" is a "45 Short" - so to speak. (A loose comparison would be the 38 Colt Short versus the 38 Colt Long - I love these two casings!).

I was wondering the other day as I was thinking about a 45 Colt SAA if there was such a thing as a "short" casing (for want of a better word) and this certainly answers that question - nice to know!

Now for another question - which may seem on the stupid side but my old mind is "befuddled" with it. On a SAA as described - which has separate cylinders (again an assumption) - one for 45 ACP and one for 45 Colt (Long - even though many will take issue with the term "Long"). If I am understanding the "combination" SAA revolver - it has two cylinders? So, can you explain the design of the 45 ACP cylinder. On a "swing out" cylinder design, it's my understanding that "moon clips" are used. On the SAA design though - I'm assuming that the 45ACP cylinder is loaded through the loading gate? So, it would headspace in the cylinder just as it would in a semi-auto barrel. So is the 45 ACP cylinder in essence a little longer than the standard 45 Colt cylinder which allows for the thickness of the rim (on the 45 Colt) between the back of the cylinder and the recoil plate - whereas the 45 ACP cylinder would set the base of the ACP casing tighter against the recoil plate? Or am I misunderstanding this?

Char Gar states . . .

"It works to perfection in single action cylinders chambered for the 45 ACP round."

So could you clear this up for me - is he shooting the Starline "special" in the 45 Colt cylinder or the ACP Cylinder? Or, am I misunderstanding that there are two separate cylinders - 1 for the 45ACP and 1 for the 45 Colt??

Thanks for the information and for straightening my thoughts out on this. Knowing about the Starline "special" just makes me more eager to get a 45 and have a number of options as far as brass goes.

And Char Gar - I always enjoy your threads as I learn so much from them!

[too many things]

schofield is about same I use them in a 460 S&W for light loads

[Nueces]

bbb, you asked Charles, but I hope you won't mind if I take a shot at answering (again). The convertible single actions have two cylinders, for 45 Colt and for 45 ACP (not Auto Rim). On my Ruger, both cylinders are the same length. The ACP round does headspace on the chamber mouth, but there is space at the rear of that cylinder that can accommodate a rim, just as there is on the 45 Colt cylinder. That's why the Special case will work in the ACP cylinder. It'll also work in the 45 Cot cylinder. That's where it's used by some cowboy action shooters, who want to avoid small charges in the big 45 Colt case.

Think of an ACP case in it's cylinder, located at the rear by the recoil shield and at the front by the case rim rebate in the chamber. Now grow a 45 Colt rim on this case, which fits into the narrow gap at the rear of the cylinder - that's the Special case.

tmt correctly calls out another short case in the 45 Schofield. They're much cheaper than the Special, if a bit longer. They won't work in an ACP cylinder, only the 45 Colt. I use 'em all.

The 45 Auto Rim in the big Smith M-25 was my first large bore revolver. I looked into modifying various single action 45 ACP cylinders to accept the AR case, but this Special case takes care of all that in one, no cutting involved. It's very cool.

[bedbugbilly]

Nueces . . . got it! Thank you very much - appreciate the explanation! That clears it up and gets my thinking "straight" on it! LOL

When I was thinking about the shorter cases for the 45 Colt - I'd completely forgotten about the Schofield. It's heck getting old!

I load a lot of 39 Colt short, long and special. I like the option of the 38 short and have a lot of fun with it. I load the 38 longs primarily because I have 'em but it's only about a 1/10" or so shorter than the spl. so really isn't a big change. If I had a '72 open top, then I'd be loading the 38 longs for that - but that is on the "want" list for the '72 open top.

I'm looking at getting a 45 Colt and adding that cartridge just because of the history of it. I'm getting older and too often we "put things off" and then realize that time has run out. What you fellows are describing sounds like there is a lot of different ways to "play" with the 45 - all of them interesting!

Thanks again for the "lesson" - I greatly appreciate it. Everyday I learn something new on here!

[Nueces]

Yowza, yer welcome!

[Char-Gar]

You can get a 45 Special case for use in 45 ACP cylinders by buying them, or you can shorten 45 Colt cases and get the same thing, but with a 45 Colt head stamp. I have made them by running 45 Colt cases into a 45 ACP file trim die and cutting off the excess with a fine tooth hacksaw. The resulting case is a little long and then it is dressed down to proper length in a case trimmer.
It is a little labor intensive, but is a cheaper way to go as the 45 Special cases can be more pricey than 45 Colt cases.

My primary motive in going with the 45 Special was to get a better accuracy out of the above pictured handgun. The 45 Colt cylinder has .457 throats and the 45 ACP cylinder has .453 throats. A .452 bullet in the 45 Special cases produces very good accuracy in the ACP cylinder. I continue to be amazed how a bullet can fly down that long throat before it hits the barrel forcing cone and still produce good accuracy, but they can and do.

It is just gravy that this load also produces great result in the 45 ACP cylinder of my Lipsey's 45 Flattop Convertible.

As an aside, Ed Harris was playing with these cases in his Ruger convertible and getting good results. He also lapped the rear end of the cylinder throat to get rid of microburrs there left over the the reaming. He used a 30-06 case coated with 600 grit emery paste to do the job. I did the same thing in both of my SA cylinders and I am convinced it helped in the accuracy department.

The U.S. Ptn. F.A. sixgun pictured above is good looking but it is a clone of a very primitive cartridge revolver. The sights are 1973 style as are the grips. It takes very careful attention to how you hold this handgun as the point of aim can walk around if your grip is inconsistent or your trigger finger bears against the frame. However for quick point shooting at close ranges, it is a hoot and deadly as well.

The Ruger Flattop is big improvement with it visible adjustable sights and larger profile grips. Mine is a wonderful sixgun. I have read some folks that were not happy with theirs on this site, but I have had experience with four of them and all have been truly great sixguns. I just have to scratch my head and wonder if the unhappy folks got bad sixguns, which can happen or have perception issues, which can also happen.

[Char-Gar]

The 45 Auto Rim in the big Smith M-25 was my first large bore revolver. I looked into modifying various single action 45 ACP cylinders to accept the AR case, but this Special case takes care of all that in one, no cutting involved. It's very cool.

Some folks have modified their 45 ACP cylinders to take the Auto Rim case by turning off some metal on the back of the cylinder to accommodate the thick AR rim. This will work fine on the large Ruger New Model cylinder, but on the smaller New Vaquero/Flattop cylinders you will get into the ratchet when trying to do so. To modify a smaller cylinder you will have to pocket mill each charge hole to take the thicker rim, a much more involved machining operation.

As you noted using the 45 Special case or shortening the 45 Colt case gets you to the same place without having to modify your revolver cylinder.

[MT Gianni]

Char-Gar, is there a link to Ed Harris's work on this? Thanks.

[Char-Gar]

Char-Gar, is there a link to Ed Harris's work on this? Thanks.

I read Ed's article in the Fouling Shot, which I don't believe is available online.

Ed Harris and Glen Fryxell are two guys whose opinions I hold in high regard. If they held an opinion contrary to mine, that would cause me to back up and rethink my own opinion. It might not change, but I would most certainly question it and give the whole issue a through going over. Lucky for me, that doesn't happen often. I do so hate being wrong and having to change my opinion.

[bedbugbilly]

Char-Gar - thanks for the fine information . . . and thank you for your help and advice - greatly appreciated!

I went to Star Line's site - pulled down their cartridges but can't find their "45 Special". Was this by any chance a "special run" for another outlet or do they just not list it? Thanks again!

Jim

[docone31]

What about a .45 Schofield for a Special?

[Nueces]

Until last week, the sole source for Cowboy 45 Special brass has been http://cowboy45specialbrass.blogspot.com , out of San Antonio. The brass was made for them by Starline. The business has been sold, as explained on the cited site (heh). I haven't turned up contact info for the new distributors, but Miss Cubbie appears to be updating her site regularly, so we'll wait.

[DougGuy]

Not to steer this thread, but I am keeping an eye open for a donor .45x5 1/2" New Model Vaquero convertible for a project much like this. I plan on reaming the .45 ACP cylinder to accept .45 Schofield brass so that I can use it to develop tier 2 (23,000 psi) loads that will take advantage of the smaller case capacity and offer a more consistent burn as opposed to mid-loading the .45 Colt cases.

Ruger gave us a fine and dandy medium framed revolver but there aren't many 23,000psi published loads for the .45 Colt since there never was a SAAMI +P spec for this cartridge and I think a dedicated +P load in shorter brass has the potential to really let these medium framed .45 caliber guns really shine. 255gr to 280gr boolits at 1175f/s is my target. Yes it can be done in .45 Colt brass, but it's just not the same.

[Nueces]

DougGuy, I like the way you think. My own project (of many fallow years) involves an old S&W 5-Screw M-27 with a buggered barrel. To go with it, I have a semi-finished factory 1950 Target 45 barrel. Idea is to cut the barrel to 5" and checker the top rib to match the frame, then tight chamber the cylinder to 45 S&W (Schofield). Those Smith 357 cylinders are too short to accept many full weight 45 slugs seated to the crimp groove. I rather think it'd be unique and very capable.

[Char-Gar]

Not to steer this thread, but I am keeping an eye open for a donor .45x5 1/2" New Model Vaquero convertible for a project much like this. I plan on reaming the .45 ACP cylinder to accept .45 Schofield brass so that I can use it to develop tier 2 (23,000 psi) loads that will take advantage of the smaller case capacity and offer a more consistent burn as opposed to mid-loading the .45 Colt cases.

Ruger gave us a fine and dandy medium framed revolver but there aren't many 23,000psi published loads for the .45 Colt since there never was a SAAMI +P spec for this cartridge and I think a dedicated +P load in shorter brass has the potential to really let these medium framed .45 caliber guns really shine. 255gr to 280gr boolits at 1175f/s is my target. Yes it can be done in .45 Colt brass, but it's just not the same.

Let me start by saying that I don't plan on doing it, BUT. I have wondered just how much either a 45 Special or shortened 45 Colt case in a 45 ACP cylinder can be pushed. A few years back, John Taffin pushed a 250 - 260 grain bullet 1,200 fps in the 45 Auto Rim case using 2400 powder and he said it was safe. I have loaded some of those and shot them in my Smith and Wesson 25-2 and they did just fine.

Both the 45 Special and shortened 45 Colt case has more powder capacity than the Auto Rim. When I compare shortened 45 Colt Starline case to a 45 Special case, I find the shortened Colt has more powder capacity yet.

So the question would be, does one have to go to the Schofield length case to get you where you want to be.

Just thinking outloud.