Revolver Accuracy; Perspection, perception and reality?

[cbrick]

There is more than one claimant in this thread with a history of cutting and running when asked to back up rhetoric with money... Onceabull

I suggest that if your man enough to butt into something that you've had no part of that you also be man enough to name those you aim to slander.

Rick

[35remington]

Speaking for myself only, my observation is that this should be a really easy thing to prove happens all the time (super small groups for the norm). Just shoot the groups on one paper and show us.

Yet somehow it never gets done......one has to wonder why.

[dtknowles]

For one the person who claims to have done it, can't do it anymore. You have challenged a Guy to do in his old age what he claims to have done in his prime.

Tim

[35remington]

I mentioned that those wanting to prove this may let someone else shoot their half inch gun. I am interested in what the revolver is capable of, repeatedly, and don't care who does it.

The troubling thing is we don't have any multiple group targets from the glory days, either.

[cbrick]

Tim, he can have all the proof he wants. My money is on him doing nothing but stirring the pot. Since he is so eager to jump on a plane he can fly to Los Angeles. The IHMSA World Championships will be held there next summer. Not even an admission fee, free to all spectators. All entries are on a timed relay, all he need to do is ask around who the top revolver shooters are and what time they shoot, then sit back & watch. Think he'll do it.

Oh and Tim, there is no such thing as multiple group targets in silhouette. There is one shot on each target, hit it or miss it you move on to the next target.

Rick

[35remington]

Nothing like taking a simple thing........a supposed half inch revolver at fifty......that does it, well, as an average......and simply refusing to shoot the targets to prove it. Which is to shoot multiple groups on the same target to show it is an average, after all.

You suppose those fifty yard silhouette chickens measure a half inch? Wait.....they're a lot bigger than that? 13 by 11 inches? Why so wide?

Cbrick, since groups were mentioned, groups as proof I ask for. You want somebody to shoot at much larger silhouette targets, feel free, but a half inch they do not make.

A great many shooters have said pretty much what I'm saying here on this thread, some who are silhouette shooters themselves, or have worked for the firearm industry or are former staffers for the NRA, or are custom gunsmiths that specialize in revolvers. Reread the thread from the start to confirm that. They ain't buying the half inch at fifty schtick with stock revolvers either.

I just happen to be more persistent in refuting the fanciful stories. Some of the comments have been a lot more unkind than mine.....by contrast, I simply said I did not believe the claims. It's what's said without proof that makes doubters....and there's a steadfast refusal to prove anything here with cold hard facts, always.

That seems more than a little convenient, no?

Let's just tally that up.......and comfortably state that if there was a consensus to build from all of this.....it is that a lot of the fanciful claims are regarded, by those who know better and have the bonafides to contest the assertions, as exactly that.....fanciful. Which is what you'd expect.

Since this has run its course, and now we're firmly into the "Oh yeah?........Make me!" phase of the argument wherein one side regards the other as completely clueless, let's sign this one off and put it to bed.

Feel free to visit Lincoln, Nebraska anytime you're in the vicinity for confirmation I can shoot decently with a handgun (my discipline was Bullseye). And, yeah, pretty close to 44man's still unbelievable claims.....but only with a scoped Contender on a rest, not an iron sighted revolver from Creedmore every time.

That a typical, off the shelf production revolver will not shoot as well as claimed here, for averages, is incredibly obvious to everyone that makes, tests or makes a living with production revolvers or those who make custom revolvers for a living. Those guys have weighed in here, in case you missed it.

All that was said is that stock revolvers should not be expected to do it as a matter of course......because they can't. Yet, somehow, you don't want to even concede that very obvious truth. There's rooting for your favorite firearm type....and also being coldly truthful about what they are capable of for an average. Some here are not capable of combining the two. So be it.

[apen]

Claims should be proven and not stand unchecked because no one can disprove them. I can't prove the Easter bunny doesn't exist.
All it takes is for one person to shoot 5-5 shot groups back to back at 50 yards and post up the pics.

Edited: If the first 5 doesn't do it, feel free to shoot more 5 shot groups until the results you desire are there. Just include all targets from start to finish. That's more lenient that a strict 5 target requirement.

[M-Tecs]

To assist with measuring the groups in any of the past or future pictures. It's free and it works very well.

http://www.6mmbr.com/ontargetsoftware.html

http://www.ontargetshooting.com/download.html

http://www.ontargetshooting.com/download1.html free version

[cbrick]

Didn't think for a second you'd go.

Rick

[tazman]

From what I have seen so far on this thread, if some one did post a set of targets, he would be called a liar since "it is physically impossible".
I won't say all or even most guns will shoot that well. Enough of them do that it is a possibility.
What I would say, is that if you give a man a gun capable of such accuracy, most people will not be able to do it anyway. They don't have the wherewithal to accomplish it. Eyesight, control, technique, whatever.
I am not about to tell someone they can't do it and are lying about their accomplishments since I have not seen them fail at it. Or because I can't do it.
I have seen people shoot under 1 inch groups at 50 yards with a compound bow consistently. I think there are people capable of that kind of accuracy with a revolver.
I think more guns are capable of that accuracy than there are people capable of shooting them that well.
When I was shooting target archery and bow hunting tournaments, I was one of the top shots in this area. I constantly had people accuse me of cheating even when their friends shot with me and verified my scores. Simply because they couldn't do it.
I wasn't even the best shot in the area. I was just the best at that tournament that day.
I hear some of the same trash talk coming from posters in this thread.

[dtknowles]

Tim, he can have all the proof he wants. My money is on him doing nothing but stirring the pot. Since he is so eager to jump on a plane he can fly to Los Angeles. The IHMSA World Championships will be held there next summer. Not even an admission fee, free to all spectators. All entries are on a timed relay, all he need to do is ask around who the top revolver shooters are and what time they shoot, then sit back & watch. Think he'll do it.

Oh and Tim, there is no such thing as multiple group targets in silhouette. There is one shot on each target, hit it or miss it you move on to the next target.

Rick

You should know I know how a works even if I only shot Hunters pistol. When I was getting ready for a match. Working on calibrating my sight adjustments, I shot groups and when I was picking my match ammo I shot groups. Testing ammo I would put multiple target dots on the same sheet of paper and shoot a bunch of groups. My 22 would shoot under an inch at 25 yards with more than one brand of ammo. For hunters pistol the ammo did not make much difference but getting the sight adjustment right for the changes in range was very important, that really only took a couple 10 shot groups at each range once I picked the ammo. I seem to remember that I ran out of adjustment for the rams and had to hold over. I moved and stopped competing before I fixed than problem.

Tim

Tim

[apen]

From what I have seen so far on this thread, if some one did post a set of targets, he would be called a liar since "it is physically impossible".

You already think they are being called liars without pictures. I just want to see it.

I have seen people shoot under 1 inch groups at 50 yards with a compound bow consistently.

Impressive, but lets just address the moa revolver for now.

[35remington]

cbrick, the claim was for groups. A revolver that can hold 2.5 inches at fifty can clean all the silhouette targets at a match......so asking me to witness a less rigorous standard of shooting is going backwards. You wanted me to not settle for anything less than "the best you can be", right?

Why settle for mediocrity now? I want to see a half inch revolver that's a stocker at 50. Why would I ask for less than was claimed? Why let the shooter hit anywhere on a 13 X11 inch target at 50 yards and call that just as good just because it got knocked over?

And, as I mentioned, guys who know far better than the posters who make ridiculous claims have weighed in on revolver accuracy on this thread, including silhouette shooters. They ain't buying it either.

[35remington]

"Working on calibrating my sight adjustments, I shot groups and when I was picking my match ammo I shot groups. Testing ammo I would put multiple target dots on the same sheet of paper and shoot a bunch of groups."

Funny how you managed to do that, which is pretty standard for selecting one's match ammo (I did it for Bullseye) and none of these other guys EVER did.....at least, if they did, they never have a target to show for it that would prove their claims.

Taz....I've been a tournament archery shooter since I was 10. Even the best tournament shooters don't hold groups at 50 of one inch consistently. We're shooting off our hind legs standing up (offhand), after all. Claiming that is the norm for some people is less believable than what is said here about some revolvers, and that seems like enough for one thread.

[cbrick]

I hear some of the same trash talk coming from posters in this thread.

Trash talk? To say the least. Anyone that has paid attention to this thread knows this is over claims that I never made. Even so my character has been assassinated on page after page of this thread demanding that I bow to the wants of the accuser and prove the claims I never made. Can't get this kind of humor on Comedy Central or Saturday Night Live where stupidity reins supreme.

Pretty much says all one needs to know about the character of the accuser.

cbrick, the claim was for groups. A revolver that can hold 2.5 inches at fifty can clean all the silhouette targets at a match......so asking me to witness a less rigorous standard of shooting is going backwards.

When you get there (I'm sure you'll go right?) be sure to stay for the shoot-offs. That same revolver that according to you is so easy to go 80x80 on those huge targets must now be used on 1/2 size targets. At 200 meters. Shooting a perfect revolver 80x80 only gets you into the match.

To steal a signature line from another member . . .

When your dead you don't know your dead, it's only a problem for others around you. It's the same when your stupid.

Rick

[44man]

I refuse to concede the fact that factory revolvers will shoot and it is your loading that makes them fail. If anyone thinks spending a few more thousands will make a gun better, you might be wrong.
One other thing is my loads work in every gun so if you have a SRH, SBH or SBH Hunter, my loads work in all of them. It is hogwash that each revolver needs a different load. A DW and even a Taurus has shot them under 1" at 50 meters.
Only one thing I will not do is shoot my heavy boolits from a S&W, I stay at 240 to 265 gr in the 29's.

[44man]

cbrick, the claim was for groups. A revolver that can hold 2.5 inches at fifty can clean all the silhouette targets at a match. "Quote"
Afraid not! I would love to see you hit 20 turkeys at 150 meters with that load. Rams will make you crawl in a hole. Add in shakes, vision, sight alignment and wind and you might as well pee on an electric fence!
I am willing to bet you could not hit 10 chickens.
IHMSA production means a gun can't be altered and the only thing allowed is trigger work. The big squabble was cheap Ruger sights while other revolvers had better sights, smoke the Ruger sights and they worked. Clicks were a problem so I bought packs of elevation screws, they wore out fast.
S&W and TC came out with fancy front sights but they all failed.
Ruger hammer springs take a set and as soon as accuracy started to drop, I replaced it, bought packs of 12. I switched to Wolfe Over Power, 26#. I do the same with BFR's.
Your problem is you do not understand the revolver and blame it because you can't do it.Attachment 130630 I want to show you this. Freedom .454 fit too tight. Left target with factory loads. Sorry I had to work on it! Then a PB cast shot to max on the right target at 50 yards. A Ruger SBH Hunter can better this out of box. (Not the Bisley)
The difference on the IHMSA line was those that knew how to load and those that did not. Rick understands and might have seen more then I did but my money says both of us could make any of those production revolvers shoot into the winners circle.

[35remington]

Cbrick, nobody asked you to prove anything since you never made the claims. Let it go.

Half scale targets at 200 are a lower standard of accuracy than what I'm asking for. A half inch fifty yard revolver should clean those with accuracy to spare.

I'm not championing mediocrity here. I am asking for what was claimed and won't settle for some different and likely lesser standard. You should approve of this.

[35remington]

44, my problem is I do understand the revolver. Because I do, your claims come off as far from believable.

[45 2.1]

Well, this thread has certainly gone over the cliff into free fall. We have a lot of Trollish behavior going on with people basically calling others liars when they saw it happen... or did it themselves. Nobody here is anyone else's boss..... so if they want to see it done, they should learn to do it or travel someplace on their own dime to do so. As far as ability and reality, those are individual things controlled by the individual and vary a lot over the spectrum of people on the earth. Too bad some of the more argumentative people on this thread can't or won't see that................