Trapdoor load

[DeadWoodDan]

So I'm finally getting back to this project, been a long ( short ) summer/fall. Loaded my first round today and had a question. I'm using FFg BP, 70 grain load with Lee405HB. New Win. brass, with Win LR primer, no mods to the flash hole. Basically following the majority of instructions by Spence Wolf book.

I'm questioning the use of both expander plug and compression plug. Couldn't the expander plug be used to enlarge for cast boolit and compress powder all in one operation?

The brass expander plug I have ( believe I purchased from Wolfes ) is almost too long to be used to flare the case mouth. By the time I adjust to the step on plug it would compress powder further.

[Larry Gibson]

"Couldn't the expander plug be used to enlarge for cast boolit and compress powder all in one operation?"

Yes it could IF the expander was made specific the the seating depth of the specific bullet used and it flared the case mouth at the same time the powder was compressed. It's not to hard to make a custom expander to do that if that's what you want to do. However, if you change powder/charge or bullet then it probably won't work and you're back to using an expander and a compression die.

Larry Gibson

[DeadWoodDan]

I was thinking just using the expander to do both compress and expand then use the LEE universal flare die in the next operation to put a small bell on case mouth for easy starting of boolit.

Just realized something, guess Wolfe and or others may have used the expander before dropping powder? Otherwise I couldn't not see the reason for using both? OR I'm wondering if this expander was made for smokeless?

[Scharfschuetze]

Wolf's expander is larger in diamater than a standard RCBS and Lyman expander so as not to compress the 1 in 20 or 1 in 30 alloy boolits best used in an original Trapdoor. Your assumption that it is used after sizing to expand and bell is correct. Once expanded, prime, charge with your powder and then use the brass compression plug and of course then seat and crimp your boolit.

[StrawHat]

...it is used after sizing to expand and bell is correct. Once expanded, prime, charge with your powder and then use the brass compression plug and of course then seat and crimp your boolit.

And let us know how it shoots for you.

By the way, what rifle are you using?

[DeadWoodDan]

And let us know how it shoots for you.

By the way, what rifle are you using?

I have two TD's, one is the standard 32-5/8" length that was passed down from a great uncle and the second is what i believe to be a modified one to replicate the Cadet model. I have not done much research into the mod. Cadet, but from the 2 books i purchased yrs ago I believe I confirmed it could not be a Cadet model, can't remember why.

[Scharfschuetze]

And let us know how it shoots for you.

By the way, what rifle are you using?

Using the 405 grain Lee hollow base boolit as cast and SPG type lube, black powder loads will go between 2 and 3 MOA on average.

Here the rifles. Not all are present for formation, but all my Trapdoors shoot well using the dies and procedure in question. Unlike DeadWoodDan though, I enlarge the flash hole in my BP cases and use the Federal magnum LR primer.

[rfd]

i would, and do, do it in two steps - expand, compress.

[bigted]

until you get the load that you want to remain with ... as Larry mentions ... better do it in two operations ... then when and if you get where you desire to leave well enough alone ... then modify your expander die to creat the desired compression at the same time and thusly removing a step from the loading operation.

myself tho ... I use every possible opportunity to inspect my cases and the more steps involved ... the more I get to look at the cases for defects and signs of cracking and need for annealing. just my way but it has worked so far and I enjoy every turn of the casting, lube handling and loading steps as it all is the salve that mends my mind from the world as it is today.

[country gent]

It can be done in one step if everything is set up correctly for one load in one case with one bullet. Another issue will be getting a true compression with the radious on the bottom of most expanders. I expand the necks when needed after depriming. I dont size until the last step. prime and then drop charges into cases. add the card wad and compress to depth, hand seat the bullets onto the charge then run into sizing die for wanted neck tension. My expander for my .459 dia bullets measures .461 dia. This allows bullets to be seated with just the fingers so there is no distortion of the soft bullet.

[John Boy]

...Yes it could IF the expander was made specific the the seating depth of the specific bullet used

Using the expander plug for compression - just adjust the height of the die. I use TOTW plugs for both expanding/belling and powder compression

[Scharfschuetze]

I'm not sure that I'd use the steel expander plug to compress the black powder. There is a reason that the compression plug for BP is made of brass as well as other tools used for loading black powder for either muzzle loaders or black powder cartridge rifles.

[StrawHat]

Scharfschuetze

Nice looking 1866 in the photo.

[clum553946]

I'm not sure that I'd use the steel expander plug to compress the black powder. There is a reason that the compression plug for BP is made of brass as well as other tools used for loading black powder for either muzzle loaders or black powder cartridge rifles.

Steel attracts static electricity & brass doesn't. If you get a minor arc while reloading, the results aren't so good.

[rfd]

Steel attracts static electricity & brass doesn't. If you get a minor arc while reloading, the results aren't so good.

which is why i'll expand with steel and compress with brass. no-brainer stuff.

[bigted]

not so much on the static electric current or sparks when compressing powder ... BPCR loaders have been squishin Black Powder for a looooong time with steel compression stems. I never heard of havin to use brass for a compression stem. I have loaded many hundreds of rounds with my all steel stuff and never had any hint of trouble nor have I had anybody or heard of anybody havin trouble with the same.

where do you guys get the info about havin to compress with brass? id like to know just for my own personal info.

places like BACO and TOTW sell steel compression stems and have for a very long time and to think of it ... ive never heard of anyplace that sells brass stems for this purpose.

now I do not know all so I would urge bits of info on this subject that is verified and has substance ... not old wives tales.

im not being rude here ... but when a rumor begins and goes unchecked I feel that we all suffer from them and have the obligation to challenge the info/rumor ... so we all may obtain the same safe loading procedures and practices.

[rfd]

i also see no issue with using a steel compression plug, nor using a plastic hopper powder measure - all with black powder.

i use a brass compression plug (in a lee expander die) that i got from pat at wolfs western traders - ya know, spence wolf. the .45-70 trapdoor guy.

[clum553946]

Static electricity is a naturally occurring phenomenon. You are partially protected compressing with steel because you are using a brass case. Tiny, mild sparks can occur, however, between the plug & surrounding steel reloading components. Is it likely to happen? Probably not. Is it possible? Yes. Would I stake my safety on it? No.

[rfd]

check this out .......

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_...ks/sparks.html

[DeadWoodDan]

All good information , with some education as usual. Since this is my first round with BP I'm thankful everyone is commenting. I have two rounds ready to fire, just waiting for a good day and less busy one.

I figured out the correct sequence of operations/ dies and am happy I asked.

Can't wait to get both Old Warriors on paper. Told my wife one yr. for a Fathers day present I would like to attend if not participate in the Quigley match.