Originally Posted by NavyVet1959
Well let us know how it goes...if you can.
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Well let us know how it goes...if you can.
Aim small, miss small!
The flaw to your line of reasoning seems to be that if that particular 45/70 load produces that amount of pressure as it is loaded in the 45/70 case it would produce that same pressure if loaded in a different case or loaded loose in a ML, unfortunately it doesn't work like that! You are getting your terms confused, that QL "max" pressure is not the MAXIMUM" pressure that amount of that powder with that weight bullet is capable of producing it's QL's prediction of what it should make IN THAT PARTICULAR CARTRIDGE AND IN THAT CONFIGURATION! That amount of powder, unlike a given amount of BP, is very much capable of producing a lot more pressure than what QL is predicting as the top pressure under those circumstances, change anything and even QL will tell you those numbers then become meaningless and the pressure could easily go through the roof! What's so hard to understand? A certain amount of a given smokeless powder in a specific case and bullet weight can and will act very differently if used in a different case with a different volume/shape just as it would behave differently if removed from that brass case and dumped into a BP rifle chamber, that 9,000+ PSI is NOT the max that charge is capable of! That powder charge could probably make many times that pressure just by changing a few factors, BP is very forgiving in this respect but smokeless most definitely is not.
Take that example I gave about the guy with the 45 caliber ML, he broke down a cartridge would have been well within BP pressures if fired as it was meant to be but when it was taken apart and reloaded into the ML the barrel burst at the breech plug. What you are trying to say is nothing new, people have been arguing that same line of reasoning for years and the results are well known!
Last edited by oldred; 01-03-2015 at 09:02 PM.
As I previously mentioned, I do not have a muzzle loading firearm (nor any particular desire to own one).
But, *if* I did and was inclined to try to find a smokeless substitute, I would start off with something like the extremely slow 20mm cannon or .50 BMG powders, not a fast pistol or shotgun powder.
The shotgun powders keep their pressure down in shotgun rounds because there is space between the charge and the pellets taken up by the wad in addition to being smooth bore. Unless you designed a muzzle loader barrel that could guarantee that there would be space between the powder and the bullet, using a fast powder like that would be dangerous since you cannot control the effective seating depth.
Loading a muzzle loading firearm is basically the equivalent of loading a really long cartridge. If you cannot be consistent in your loading technique, *bad* things can happen. Using black powder gives you a lot more margin for error, that's why loading smokeless in a muzzle loader can definitely be dangerous. Plus, most muzzle loading firearms are probably only designed to handle the pressure that black powder can generate and as such, you would have to be very careful in your choice of smokeless. It wouldn't be that difficult to design a muzzle loader that could handle smokeless. You would just need to have a "powder chamber" that was of enough of a smaller diameter than the projectile / bore that it was basically impossible for a person to push the bullet any further. Combine that with a barrel made to handle the pressure of smokeless (proper alloy of steel plus sufficient wall thickness) and it would be possible. Is it *worth* doing though? Not in my opinion, but it would be *possible*.
Some things are sometimes better left as they are.
You are not aware of the Savage 10ML????????
That one by Savage and a few custom built smokeless MLs do already exist but these are quite different than a conventional ML which has been the subject here, comparing these rifles to a conventional ML is another case of apples to oranges and even the purpose built Savage had a short and very questionable history. These purpose built MLs are built from modern high strength steels but just as importantly they have a different ignition system than a conventional ML, most of the customs are simply converted cartridge arms but either is very different than a conventional type.
Last edited by oldred; 01-03-2015 at 10:22 PM.
You are correct in saying "Is it *worth* doing though? Not in my opinion, but it would be *possible*." With all the new substitutes they have now, it just isn't worth the chance. I also could probably figure out some smokeless load that would work but it would take allot of testing and figuring but not worth the effort. Unfortunately there are allot of people out there either not smart enough or don't know any better because they have never did any reloading and don't realize how much danger and pressure is produced by even a small amount of powder. That is allot in why some have bought muzzle loaders approved for smokeless powders but didn't heed the warnings on powders to use and figuring they can go over the limit on powder thinking there is a big safety margin on the limit.
Aim small, miss small!
The problem with smokless in a muzzleloader begins with the nipple, savage found this out. Next and this is opinion the projectile is in he rifiing so it is loose and needs to bump up for accuracy which leaves you using powerbelts. Also compressing smokeless is a problem some sort of ring to stop compression would be needed. This is all speckulation on my part I haven't tried any of this.
It may be speculation but it seems to be spot on, especially the ignition (nipple) part because that's been established from the beginning.
The ventliners do erode but they are replaceable. None of the smokeless shooters use powerbelts since the belts are not tough enough and no ring is used.
http://dougsmessageboards.proboards....-muzzleloading
http://smokelessmz.com/index.html
http://ridgerunner20.tripod.com/thes...ages/id19.html
Last edited by M-Tecs; 01-09-2015 at 12:20 AM.
M-Tech has posted good links for those that wish to learn.
Ken
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Je suis Charlie
Remember Lavoy!
I'll cling to my God and my guns, and you can keep the "Change".
Thanks for the links M-Tecs. I like the idea of SML I will enjoy the reading. I made my post as my own thoughts on the matter of SMl rifles I think that is what this board is for. After reading on the pressure and velocity listings on q loads it seems the rules for cartridge smokless and Ml smokeless are very different, the compression surprises me this is not good in a cartridge.
screwbolts the smoothsided waterdroped boolets you use are they gc or plainbase also what alloy or hardnsss are they, my concern is leading thanks for the comments this may be a fun project.
As for post count I'm not sure how much money that is worth but will gladly sell all of mine.
With a ramrod in a ML you are hard pressedto get 60 pounds of downward force. In a reloading press is it is easy to apply a 10 or 20 times that amount of force. Some powders should not be compressed but its recommended for most. I read this a lot. I think some are confusing compression with reducing volume such as setting bullets too deep in pistol cases with fast powders.
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/relo...mpressed-loads
Compressed Loads
Normally a pistol or rifle shellcase is considered full, or 100% loading density, when the powder charge sits at the base of the bullet when the bullet is fully seated. It is possible with some powders and cartridges to increase the powder charge slightly above this point, such that when the bullet is seated it actually compresses the powder charge slightly. This condition is known as a compressed load.
Hodgdon notes in its reloading data if the subject charge is a compressed load. A full case, or lightly compressed charge is an ideal condition for creating loads with the most uniform velocities and pressures, and oftentimes, producing top accuracy
http://www.shootersforum.com/handloa...-how-much.html
Compressed is the correct wording, maybe with your ramrod you can only get 60, I regularly see 160+ on Mine. Yes I have and old bathroom scale below my loading bench that I often use to check how many pounds of pressure is required to push my chosen sabot and boolit combo down, then by placing any one of my custom made ball starters over the end of the solid aluminum ram rod, I seat the sabot on the powder with up to and beyond 160 pounds, This tightly packs and does compress the powder some. Yes a press is capable of crushing powder in heavily compressed loads, far beyond what is considered normal in smokeless Muzzleloading.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Je suis Charlie
Remember Lavoy!
I'll cling to my God and my guns, and you can keep the "Change".
I am just switching form sabots to full form bullets. After 40 pounds I haven't seen better SD's or accuracy with either but I have not tried anything close to 160 pounds. I am really liking the full form since you don't have the heat sensitivity of sabots.
This discussion maybe should go to a new thread, I do not wish to hijack the OPs thread.
The alloy is WWs water dropped ( Verel Smith of LBT, recommended this alloy and WD, his LFN needs no expansion and he recommended 1500 to 1750 FPS tops for his Boolit design, I concur. ) in 2 weeks usually see 28 BNH. Please remember that the boolitz are shot in sabots, so no lead barrel contact occurs. Thus no barrel leading. The powders that are recommended for SML are the ones that only require -15K of pressure for complete burn. ( for guns built for smokeless use only! RE7, H4227 and IMR, IMR SR4759, AAC 5744 These are the most popular. )
This is a mold that I cut myself, It started life a a .45 Maxi mold, I shortened it and then using my own ground tooling, cut the cavity to drop a clone of the Hornady 250 gr XTP. this boolit is 265 gr. Never shoot a deer with it. It shoots great.
The previous mold experience led me to call Verel Smith of LBT, that call ended with, Verel, cut me a double Cavity of your recommendations for our use in SMLs. We talked of alloy and Velocity. He cut me a beautiful piece of art work that drops .452 LFN boolitz that tip my scale at 333 gr. with my alloy. They also fly like they have wings. My brothers prefer this one over my favorite a BRP design. This mold has cast thousands of boolitz.
With 5 Savages in the Family and my 4 Non Savage SML I needed another mold to keep them fed. Well BRP listed a 300gr ML BB design that he would cut a 5 cav for. This was a natural for me, I was spending to much time with a 2 cavity mold. I did return the mold to Bruce and he removed .025 from the base removing most of the Beveled Base. I found with smokeless the heavy Beveled base would allow the sabot to fail. What I ended up with is IMHO, perfect. a 288 gr FN boolit of .452 diam. A little smaller Meplat so it can be pushed faster without going over Verel SMiths DV criteria. I shoot them at 1950 FPS out of 3 Different SML guns. They fly like the have wings and Harvest deer nicely. I keep a couple 3 pound coffee cans full of these for a reason, Less recoil than the LBT, and saves a little alloy, I have never recovered one.
This is the only LBT that has been recovered in eight+ years of Harvesting critters with them. It came out of a nice 9 Point, the deer was facing straight away at 225 yards, My brother Bryan hit it just low and right of its Brown eye.The boolit then Destroyed the Rt hip joint, but was not done traveling, it charged straight forward hitting the spine were it dips between the shoulders. It still wasn't done, it came to rest in the skin of the front of the neck just under the chin. Needless to say the deer was DRT. it started at 333gr and is riveted, and 297gr now. We like the FN boolitz, there is an unfired LBT to its left and a BRP to the right. Notice the very slight bevel on both the fired and un fired LBT. Hard boolits work for us. You milage may vary, but we in my family and group of friends will be hunting with a FN that is hard.
Several in my family by the Harvester Short Black sabots by the case from Graf and sons, I have a full case on hand at all times, there is 1 1/2 cases in the closest now, that doesn't count what I keep in my shooting box.
I use Winchester 209s in Breech plugs that I make for all of my SMls. Tight fitting sabots/boolit combo is a must with SMLs.
My first SML build used a Remington #5 Rolling Block action. 26" SS barrel 1x24 twist. My next 2 used Remington 700 ML actions. 1x28 Barrels.
Ken
Last edited by Screwbolts; 01-09-2015 at 10:01 PM. Reason: grammer and Spelling, I tried
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Je suis Charlie
Remember Lavoy!
I'll cling to my God and my guns, and you can keep the "Change".
M-Tecs, ( sorry for bad spelling before, I am bad. )
The only time I have had sabots fail was if I used a boolit with a large bevel base. I believe if a boolit designed for a gas check is going to be used, it should be checked when fired in a Sabot with either BH209 or smokeless for fuel. I find the flat base full diameter supports the sabot better. This is also why I and my Family and friends use the Harvester sabot exclusively. I have also shot my BRP boolitz in .45 smokeless guns paper patched. Nothing wrong with full diameter Boolitz, IMHO.
Seriously, all of my loads that I shoot require both hands to load, with at least 60 lbs to slide down a clean or freshly fired bore. Then I seat on the powder with all the pressure I can apply. I put the ram rod in a hole in the side of the ball on my ball starters, or you could say I put the ball on the ram rod, either way it allows me to seat it heavily. I can not start my boolitz in sabots down the barrel without a short starter.
I make my own vent liners from 10-32 Halo Krome screws using .03125 cobalt drills, they sell these drills in packs of ten for a reason. Snap. I replace my vents when they erode to .036. Usually it takes more than 100 primers to enlarge to this. I like Re7 in my guns and I load to the equivalent of 105 gr of BH209. 1950 FPS over my crony. I also fit my Breach plug for a .0015 crush fit on the primer.
Smokeless MLs are not for everyone, I know that, attention to detail is a must with them.
Ken
Last edited by Screwbolts; 01-09-2015 at 10:08 PM.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Je suis Charlie
Remember Lavoy!
I'll cling to my God and my guns, and you can keep the "Change".
Ken
The issue I have with sabots is the decreased accuracy if I don't let the barrel cool. On hot days I have to wait 10 minutes between shots. The full form are jacketed but they have no loss of accuracy when the barrel gets hot. I still uses sabots in my Savage ML1. This is the orginal with the primer modules. In this one I use 300 grain Barnes Originals, Black Crush Rib Harvester sabots and 69 grains of H4198. I built a 45 cal for full form on a 700ML with a Kreiger barrel and a Savage Breach Plug.
Last edited by M-Tecs; 01-10-2015 at 01:18 AM.
One of these days, I am going to take the time to write a post on round ball, and why they are superior to any other ML projectile for hunting. Quite a few here already know, but it needs laid out.
The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"
Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!
A neighbor of mine had a hog hanging from a limb in a tree in his front yard the other night and he was skinning / butchering him. Asked him what he had shot him with and he said that it was a shotgun with "hog shot" -- basically three 0.625" round balls per 12-gauge shell. He was hunting with a buddy and they both shot at the same time. The hog was able to move into the brush and they had to search for him. When they finally found him, he was still moving, so they needed yet another round at basically point blank into his head. I saw one of the round balls as they were cleaning it and as far as I could tell, it was not even deformed. I think you could have reloaded it as is without recasting.
From what I could see of the carcass, they had shot him a bit further back than what I would have tried for. He looked to have been hit about halfway between the front and hind quarters and up towards the spine. I prefer a shot right around the shoulder, if not slightly forward. I'm too old to be chasing an injured hog through the brush, so if I don't think I can make a clean kill, I will pass on the shot.
M-Tecs,
I do understand, you are traveling the correct rd for you, and that is great! Our choices on loads, and the criteria we set ourselves is different. I believe that is why some have sabot failure and others don't. Would you like to try some of my cast for paper patching experiments in your cannons?
I actually put a "ML I" together for my neighbor from parts. He already owned a 110 in 223, I found a take off barrel some were and he got from Savage one of the original modular breech plugs and 3 modules. We assemble it here and Neil shot it for a couple of years. He lost interest and sold the Barrel with accessories to a fellow that I think also belongs to this forum.
Because of my talking to Verel Smith and his cutting me that mold I throttled down my SMLs, That may be why we do not see the Sabot failures that you do/did. For youth hunters I recommend only 28-30 gr of SR4759, 1550-1650 FPS with the LBTs or BRPs, a deadly combo, shot all day with almost no barrel heat up. My hunting load is 52 gr of RE7 w/ the BRP only 1950 FPS , mimics 105 of BH209, No heat build up to speak of, Pleasant to shoot, sabots can and do get reused, not for hunting but off the bench, or out the back room window/bench. My brothers hunt with 38 gr of SR4759 or AAC5744 same amount. Pleasant to shoot. My Longest shot to date harvesting deer was 253 yards. One shot, one Kill.
Waksupi, I agree in a Black Powder gun properly rifled for shooting/stabilize a round ball, The sphere is PERFECT. But being perfect does not mean it should be every ones choice, Or be descibes as perfect by every one, that is Ok by me. We are human and we are different, we all walk different roads, That is why I also have RB, Maxi and REAL molds. I have a re barreled Numrich Arms Offhand underhammer that started life as a .45. I shot out the 45 barrel ( with round Balls ) 4000+ caps were fired on its nipple. I rebarreled it to 58 cal in the 98th year of the last century, that rifle has harvested a lot of deer, in both calibers. I shoot 65 gr. Pyrodex R-S, PRB in it now. Deadly combo, in 99 I harvested an Antelope with it at 125+ yards. The barrel was still in the white at that time. In a smokeless gun the PRB IMHO, does not allow sufficient resistance to light and get clean burn with my choice of the original BP substitutes.
No matter what we talk about or our own personal preferences on any subject, it is not hard to find someone that dislikes or does not understand our preferred choices. That does not mean anyone is superior, we all have personal likes and dislikes. Some people tolerate all choices, other tolerate all choices as long as they are the same as theirs. We see this so often in the world today.
Laus Deo,
Ken
Last edited by Screwbolts; 01-10-2015 at 09:34 AM. Reason: my usual, spelling and grammer
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Je suis Charlie
Remember Lavoy!
I'll cling to my God and my guns, and you can keep the "Change".
I don't believe this to be a failure of the ball, rather, a failure of shot placement.
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