Smokeless in a BP rifle = Big Kaboom

[opos]

So where do the people who would use a black powder substitute like Pyrodex or 777 or the many others safely discuss using those powders. How is a novice to know how fundamentally different H110 is from 777 or Pyrodex is from Lil Gun. This is the internet and visitors need to take everything a little bit skeptically.

Tim

Right off the Hodgden web site for Pyrodex...they go in depth about 777 and Pyrodex...that would be a start.

http://www.hodgdon.com/ml-warning.html

[dtknowles]

I've been shooting muzzleloaders for over 40 years. In that time, I have double charged several times. It's like dry balling, there are those who have, and those who will. Someone who gets a modern smokeless approved ML is most likely not an experienced ML shooter, and is more likely to double charge. An accident waiting to happen. Then when they blow a rifle, they will blame everything but their own negligence.

Maybe I am not typical but I bought my Savage 10ML after shooting muzzleloaders for 30 years. My first pistol was a kit built .45 cal. single shot percussion pistol. The Savage was my fifth muzzleloader. I have since bought my sixth a Ruger OA. I think that your generalization is not well founded.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Right off the Hodgden web site for Pyrodex...they go in depth about 777 and Pyrodex...that would be a start.

http://www.hodgdon.com/ml-warning.html

Yes, if the novice is wise he would go there before he came here and I think it is fair to talk about subs and smokeless here without worrying about novices getting the wrong idea. This thread carries enough warnings that the novice should not get the wrong idea.

Tim

[waksupi]

Maybe I am not typical but I bought my Savage 10ML after shooting muzzleloaders for 30 years. My first pistol was a kit built .45 cal. single shot percussion pistol. The Savage was my fifth muzzleloader. I have since bought my sixth a Ruger OA. I think that your generalization is not well founded.

Tim

Well, you've been shooting them 30+ years. Have you ever double charged, or dry balled?

[opos]

Yes, if the novice is wise he would go there before he came here and I think it is fair to talk about subs and smokeless here without worrying about novices getting the wrong idea. This thread carries enough warnings that the novice should not get the wrong idea.

Tim

I agree that the novice should not get the wrong idea and I'm not a "chicken little" kind of person...but I read lots of posts on lots of sites for loading, shooting and for other hobbies I engage in that can be equally as dangerous if not properly approached. For some reason there seem to be a bunch of new folks in the shooting hobby/sport that simply insist on "pushing" the envelope at every turn and now and then they get a big surprise...I guess my point was probably placing too much "responsibility" on the folks doing some posting and having a conversation and trying to be "mother hen" to the guy that just got the new ML for Christmas and goes looking for how he can make it into a Sako high power..they are out there...I know a couple.

I do a lot of single action Ruger shooting and love to load for them...I am constantly amazed at how many newer single action shooters come on a site and the very first question is "can I push the Ruger only loads" in my New Vaquero? "they should know better but the push seems to go on and on"...then the "arguments" begin among folks that have "slapped the bull on the nose" and been lucky and how if it says Ruger "it's a Ruger"....There is a lot of information that says just don't do it..but new folks continue to think this is a new fangled hobby and they know better.

Hope I was not overly "protective" of people...like I said in my earlier post...I had to hold onto a big firecracker when I was a little kid to find out you don't hold on to a firecracker and you damn well don't trust your older cousin..Somehow we all survive and enjoy our hobbies

[dtknowles]

Well, you've been shooting them 30+ years. Have you ever double charged, or dry balled?

Waksupi, you trying to jinks me? As a kid I dry balled the 45 pistol. I was able to dribble enough powder in thru the nipple seat to clear the ball. As far as I know I have never double charged on either double powder or double projectile. I shot the 45 pistol a lot (it was my only pistol for years) and my 36 cal cap and ball revolver. The rest I have only shot enough to get a working load and prove reliable function. I have not had the ROA a long time and have only had it to the range once. Double or dry ball is not much of a problem with the cap and ball revolvers as long as you don't follow the squib without clearing it (just saying not had the pleasure).

Tim

[dtknowles]

I agree that the novice should not get the wrong idea and I'm not a "chicken little" kind of person...but I read lots of posts on lots of sites for loading, shooting and for other hobbies I engage in that can be equally as dangerous if not properly approached. For some reason there seem to be a bunch of new folks in the shooting hobby/sport that simply insist on "pushing" the envelope at every turn and now and then they get a big surprise...I guess my point was probably placing too much "responsibility" on the folks doing some posting and having a conversation and trying to be "mother hen" to the guy that just got the new ML for Christmas and goes looking for how he can make it into a Sako high power..they are out there...I know a couple.

I do a lot of single action Ruger shooting and love to load for them...I am constantly amazed at how many newer single action shooters come on a site and the very first question is "can I push the Ruger only loads" in my New Vaquero? "they should know better but the push seems to go on and on"...then the "arguments" begin among folks that have "slapped the bull on the nose" and been lucky and how if it says Ruger "it's a Ruger"....There is a lot of information that says just don't do it..but new folks continue to think this is a new fangled hobby and they know better.

Hope I was not overly "protective" of people...like I said in my earlier post...I had to hold onto a big firecracker when I was a little kid to find out you don't hold on to a firecracker and you damn well don't trust your older cousin..Somehow we all survive and enjoy our hobbies

I don't have a problem with people pointing out the hazards to novices? I just don't think we should not talk about some things just because a novice might get the wrong idea. That said, I would not talk about how to use smokeless powder in a modern firearm marked for black powder only in any public forum it is too much of a hazard to anyone trying and to the people around them. I feel the same way about threads about making priming compounds, some things should require some sort of hurdle before access is granted.

Tim

[waksupi]

Waksupi, you trying to jinks me? As a kid I dry balled the 45 pistol. I was able to dribble enough powder in thru the nipple seat to clear the ball. As far as I know I have never double charged on either double powder or double projectile. I shot the 45 pistol a lot (it was my only pistol for years) and my 36 cal cap and ball revolver. The rest I have only shot enough to get a working load and prove reliable function. I have not had the ROA a long time and have only had it to the range once. Double or dry ball is not much of a problem with the cap and ball revolvers as long as you don't follow the squib without clearing it (just saying not had the pleasure).

Tim

Heck, I've probably saved two or three pounds worth of powder by dry balling over the years.

[opos]

I don't have a problem with people pointing out the hazards to novices? I just don't think we should not talk about some things just because a novice might get the wrong idea. That said, I would not talk about how to use smokeless powder in a modern firearm marked for black powder only in any public forum it is too much of a hazard to anyone trying and to the people around them. I feel the same way about threads about making priming compounds, some things should require some sort of hurdle before access is granted.

Tim

Besides shooting and loading I'm much involved in restoration of turn of the century farm engines and equipment...been doing it since I can recall...100 year old cast iron...brittle and like shrapnel if it breaks under load...new folks finding a crack in a 200# flywheel and "deciding" to weld it up....near impossible...looks good...might hold for a while but when they let go while spinning, people get hurt or die...it's a common thing on the old engine boards for the discussion to drift over from should it be done to "how someone heard that someone else did it" or how someone did it and has gotten away with it for years...then it gets dangerous...not unlike the low number 1903 Springfields with the heat treat problems....lots of folks shoot them and lots get along ok...but there is the occasional newcomer that thinks because someone got along ok...that they can go to a 60K pressure load with no problems...it's all about willingness to listen and to learn from those that go before that have wisdom

[waksupi]

Besides shooting and loading I'm much involved in restoration of turn of the century farm engines and equipment...been doing it since I can recall...100 year old cast iron...brittle and like shrapnel if it breaks under load...new folks finding a crack in a 200# flywheel and "deciding" to weld it up....near impossible...looks good...might hold for a while but when they let go while spinning, people get hurt or die...it's a common thing on the old engine boards for the discussion to drift over from should it be done to "how someone heard that someone else did it" or how someone did it and has gotten away with it for years...then it gets dangerous...not unlike the low number 1903 Springfields with the heat treat problems....lots of folks shoot them and lots get along ok...but there is the occasional newcomer that thinks because someone got along ok...that they can go to a 60K pressure load with no problems...it's all about willingness to listen and to learn from those that go before that have wisdom

The only shop in the country I know capable of repairing the old equipment properly is Lang Machine Shop, Hector, Minnesota.

[Charlie, AKA The Deacon]

Heck, I've probably saved two or three pounds worth of powder by dry balling over the years.

I have never done that!!! and I also do not flinch when on a pistol course,

[NavyVet1959]

I don't own any blackpowder firearms, but *if* I was extremely desperate to try a smokeless alternative to blackpowder, I would probably start my testing with the slowest powder I could find -- maybe the 20mm or .50BMG pulldown powders.

Maybe someone with Quickload could run the numbers on a .45-70 with 70 gr of H870 (assuming Quickload doesn't have WC860, WC870, or WC872 data) to see what the pressures would be? I'm *assuming* that you can put 70 gr of these powders in a .45-70. That's probably a bit higher than will actually fit though.

[oldred]

I don't own any blackpowder firearms, but *if* I was extremely desperate to try a smokeless alternative to blackpowder, I would probably start my testing with the slowest powder I could find -- maybe the 20mm or .50BMG pulldown powders.

Maybe someone with Quickload could run the numbers on a .45-70 with 70 gr of H870 (assuming Quickload doesn't have WC860, WC870, or WC872 data) to see what the pressures would be? I'm *assuming* that you can put 70 gr of these powders in a .45-70. That's probably a bit higher than will actually fit though.

45/70 or other cartridge gun that has the brass cases sealing the gas maybe but not in a ML for the reasons already mentioned, while strength of the firearm is of course a big concern it's not the only reason not to try this!

[NavyVet1959]

45/70 or other cartridge gun that has the brass cases sealing the gas maybe but not in a ML for the reasons already mentioned, while strength of the firearm is of course a big concern it's not the only reason not to try this!

I was suggesting it since Quickload can handle it and it would give a rough estimate of the possible pressures that could be experienced if this was used in a traditional muzzleloader. Since these are the slowest available powders, it's kind of best case scenario. If Quickload show this powder as having too much pressure, then no smokeless powder could be a one to one replacement.

[NavyVet1959]

Here's the numbers with a full case of that powder.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post3048732

I have a very recent copy of QL, Version 3.8, and I can't find either WC872 nor WC867. I did however have listed Hodgdon H870, US 869, and 50BMG powders. I am not responsible for any misuse of this data - just presenting here for a comparison.

This data is NOT for actual use - just for comparing powders.
At 100% load density, using a 405gr cast bullet, OAL=2.550", 20" barrel length:
H 50BMG = 50.59gr, 925 fps, 770 ft-lb, max pressure = 9263 psi, 24% of the powder burnt
H US 869 = 53.08gr, 908 fps, 742 ft-lb, max pressure = 9032 psi, 24.7% of the powder burnt
H H870 = 51.46gr, 927 fps, 773 ft-lb, max pressure = 8946 psi, 26.4% of the powder burnt

on the other extreme, just for comparison at also 100% load density:
IMR Trail Boss = 16.79gr, 1129 fps, 1146 ft-lb, max pressure = 28208 psi (!!!)


Again, the data above is NOT for actual use - just for comparing powders.

So, max pressure is less than 9300 psi. What pressure does black powder generate? From what little I've seen posted on the web, it can generate a lot more than this.

[oldred]

That may be in a brass case BUT that ignores the fact that those numbers are all dependent on critical factors, such as seating depth, etc being closely maintained when the case is loaded. There simply is too much room for error in controlling critical factors, for example when ramming a bullet down the barrel as opposed to precisely seating it in a case with a loading press! With BP or one of the subs bullet seating won't make much difference as long as the air space is eliminated but not so with smokeless, change that seating depth or powder compression by just a little bit and those QL pressure numbers go right out the window. I don't see what's so hard to understand here but while most folks do understand some just don't seem to get the fact that smokeless has critical factors that MUST be met when the components are assembled and if loaded outside of these parameters the pressure can and sometimes will GREATLY exceed anything possible with BP! You can't look at how the pressure acts in a properly assembled brass cartridge and apply that to a projectile with loose powder rammed down a barrel from the muzzle end! The bottom line is that BP is going to burn a constant rate regardless but ANYTHING that causes smokeless to increase in pressure will compound itself by causing the powder to burn faster which in turn causes even more pressure, pressures that can far exceed anything possible with BP. ALL the factors concerning loading smokeless must be tightly controlled to maintain the proper pressure curve which is easily done when loading cartridges on a press but not so with a ML.


Think about this one example, it's a well known fact that lever guns need a heavy crimp to hold the bullet in the case and blow-ups have happened because recoil forced bullets in a tubular magazine deeper into the case causing a pressure increase but it wouldn't have mattered if BP were being used, and this is just one of the things that can go wrong. The bottom line is that as long as the air space is eliminated BP is going to be limited as to how much pressure it can produce but even small otherwise low pressure charges of smokeless can and will reach extremely high pressure levels if any of the factors governing cartridge loading are not strictly duplicated, in a ML this is sometimes all but impossible to do! Then there is the problem of the gas seal of the ignition system, serious accidents can happen with escaping gas at pressures that might not yet be high enough to take the gun apart.


We can go on all day with the "yeah buts" and it will not change anything, the fact is that for years people have insisted on the very thing you are trying to say and the results are well documented! Unfortunately some folks will keep right on insisting that smokeless can be used by simply looking at what they THINK are low pressure loads but totally failing to understand (or simply refusing to accept) all the factors involved! Because of this we will keep right on seeing pictures like the one of that inline and many others and we will continue reading about missing fingers, mangled hands, etc. Thinking a safe load in a properly assembled cartridge is going to act the same if loosely loaded in a ML is pure folly that ignores not only warnings from those who do understand but also it ignores past and painful history!

[oldred]

Here's the numbers with a full case of that powder.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post3048732



So, max pressure is less than 9300 psi. What pressure does black powder generate? From what little I've seen posted on the web, it can generate a lot more than this.

This is an apples/oranges comparison, apparently the reasoning that since the "Max" pressure with that load is even less than BP it would be safe right? The problem is that "Max" pressure rating is the max for that load in THAT CONFIGURATION but that same powder charge with the same weight bullet could be drastically different under different circumstances! That's why you can't look at any given cartridge load and compare to BP pressures if that same load is used in a different manner.

By your logic this example should be safe, a certain 410 shotshell factory load was/is around 12,000 PSI which should be well under most BP loads so how could it be dangerous? I use this as an example because this very load had got a fellow I worked with hurt some years ago when he used the same reasoning. This happened to him before I got acquainted with him but he described what he did and what happened, he took what would have been a safe pressure loading in a shotshell and broke it down then loaded the components in a 45 caliber ML (IIRC he said it was a Navy arms) just as they came out of the cartridge. Upon firing this thing the results were not nearly as catastrophic as that inline but the barrel split about an inch right at the breech plug and several small pieces became shrapnel, while his hands received only minor injuries he had a rather nasty eye injury and hearing damage to his right ear. The shape of the chamber/powder column/bore diameter, etc all combine to change flame travel and pressure rise so what could very well be a low pressure in one configuration could easily be a bomb in another with smokeless powders!

[johnson1942]

i cant see what is so special about smokeless in a muzzleloader. their are people who are constantly trying to kill them selves and fancy them selves leader of learning new thing. then their is those with commom sense. just let me know when your going to put smokelss in your muzzleloader so i wont be their. knew a guy over 30 years ago who got away with it over and over again but i never stood close to him. he had a thompson hawken .45 roundball gun. shot shotgun powder in matches all the time and won. i think he died of natural causes but he was lucky. maybe all these guys who want to figure out the best safe smokelless powder load for their side lock are trying to get cast in the next ******* movie. good luck on both.

[cold1]

Unfortunately some folks will keep right on insisting that smokeless can be used by simply looking at what they THINK are low pressure loads but totally failing to understand (or simply refusing to accept) all the factors involved! Because of this we will keep right on seeing pictures like the one of that inline and many others and we will continue reading about missing fingers, mangled hands, etc. Thinking a safe load in a properly assembled cartridge is going to act the same if loosely loaded in a ML is pure folly that ignores not only warnings from those who do understand but also it ignores past and painful history!

Its not thinking about max pressures. Its a line of reasoning. Here it goes:

"A 45-70 was originaly a BP cartridge. I have shot my 50 cal ML with 150 grains of BP and everything is OK. I should be able to take any 45-70 smokeless load and duplicate it in my ML since it can handle twice as much BP as the original BP load."

Not getting into the different pressure levels of the 45-70, but alot of people will use a similar line of reasoning on loading their ML. If you have not done any research and are new to the gun world, this sounds like a reasonable argument for duplicating a smokeless load in you ML.

[NavyVet1959]

Its not thinking about max pressures. Its a line of reasoning. Here it goes:

"A 45-70 was originaly a BP cartridge. I have shot my 50 cal ML with 150 grains of BP and everything is OK. I should be able to take any 45-70 smokeless load and duplicate it in my ML since it can handle twice as much BP as the original BP load."

Not getting into the different pressure levels of the 45-70, but alot of people will use a similar line of reasoning on loading their ML. If you have not done any research and are new to the gun world, this sounds like a reasonable argument for duplicating a smokeless load in you ML.

I'm just saying that if you have a .45 caliber muzzle loader and a loading for a .45-70 that takes a full case of powder (i.e. the bullet is seated directly on the powder) and the pressure for that .45-70 loading is less than what a BP loading would be, then it should be possible to use that in the BP firearm. With the powder that I suggested though, it would probably have less velocity than the BP though. According to Quickload, less than 25% of that powder actually gets burned. Using a shotgun or pistol powder would be dangerous though. In fact, most rifle powders probably would also be dangerous. The .50BMG and 20mm powders, probably not since they are so slow burning.