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Thread: Smokeless in a BP rifle = Big Kaboom

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
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    One golden rule of the internet is never to believe anything on social media, unless it is backed up by some sort of reputable source. Andy Warhol said that in the future everybody will be famous for fifteen minutes, but some people will stage anything, by any stratagem, to make it happen now. Still, this one is backed up, and two fingers seems a pretty reasonable tariff for what he did. It could take years for him to disappear altogether.

    All firearms propellants depend to a great extent on grain size to control their burning rate. They burn in layers from the outside to the inside, like peeling the skins from an onion, and peeling, say, a 1/10in. thick skin from a large onion will inevitably produce more of whatever it turns into than 1/10in. from a small onion. T

    The only case in which this doesn't apply is a high explosive. Blasting gelatin, for example, has a far higher ratio of nitroglycerin to nitrocellulose than any powder, and as a result, if ignited violently, it ignites as the shock wave travels through it, at a far higher speed than any propellant. It will cut steel even if unconfined. But even this will only burn if ignited with a match. I wonder if anybody, short of propellant pellets for an inline muzzle loader, has ever tried a bit of gelignite? My guess would be about a 25% chance of being a miserably weak propellant (due to the primer being a very poor substitute for a blasting detonator), and 75% chance of being a lot more than two fingers; worth of grenade.

    Returning to propellant powders, you can see the difference in the speed large grains burn, compared with small ones, if you ignite a little in a saucer. That goes for black or smokeless alike, and both burn for far longer than the bore time of any firearm. Grain size for grain size, the black powder will burn away much faster. But that is only at atmospheric pressure. Confinement increases the burning rate, no matter what kind of powder you use.

    The difference is that with black powder the burning rate is approximately proportional to pressure. Multiply that atmospheric pressure a hundred times, and the gas supply becomes about a hundred times faster. Put simply, anything that increases pressure will increase it a lot more with smokeless than black. In the case of our unfortunate amputee, these included quantity, extremely fast shotgun powder, and using smokeless at all. That is assuming he didn't, overcome with his own ingenuity, accidentally load two bullets.

    In slow rifle powders the burning rate can indeed be adjusted by perforations and/or retardant coatings. The latter is particularly important with ball powders, in which the gas supply declines more than it does with sticks or flakes. But I think grain size is more important. Perforations incidentally (increasing the internal burn surface as the external burn surface reduces) were invented for the plum-sized moulded black powder grains used in the largest sizes of cannon. But nobody misses them in firearm black powder.

    The idea of 30% of the BP load in 4198 isn't a bad one, if applied to a fairly late and non-notorious cartridge BP firearm in good condition. For the cartridge maintains a given space behind the bullet. Loading density is one of those factors which matter much, much more with smokeless than black, and the person who merrily rams a muzzle-loader bullet down on top of smokeless is joining a guaranteed 100% loading density (or more likely compression) to the wrong type, the high speed of shotgun powder, and possibly other things I haven't thought of yet.

    In theory it is possible to make a muzzle loader cope with smokeless. I seem to remember one was made in Mexico a long time ago. It may have been in the days when a little more violent death in Mexico was unlikely to be noticed. Nonsense to complain really. But my guess is that besides greater strength than a BP muzzle loader, it had a shoulder in front of the chamber, to guarantee the powder space. But that wouldn't make it safe if the powder charge extended beyond that shoulder, or the wrong type of smokeless was used.
    Last edited by Ballistics in Scotland; 12-20-2014 at 03:02 PM.

  2. #42
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    Actually you can't compare it to 300gr of BP. BP get's very inefficient with massive loads and BP rifles have been test fired with double or even triple max loads. It would not like blow up a BP rifle and there are some that say you could fill it all the way up and it's wouldn't blow up. The majority of the BP wouldn't even burn inside the rifle. That's why you don't shoot smokeless powders in guns designated for black powder only use. That's a warning straight from the manufacturers. And I am not talking about old cartridge rifles made for loading BP. I have two that I have used smokeless in myself but I was using published load data that has been verified by powder manufacturers that can test loads safely.
    Aim small, miss small!

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screwbolts View Post
    Ignorance can be educated, there is no fix for Stupid.

    There are still several custom makers of smokeless muzzle loaders out there. They are not Stupid, they work great.

    Henry Ball designed the guns Savage built and sold under licence. I believe Bill Ball will still gladly build you one.

    Ken
    Gee I would hate to pay their insurance costs. The NMLRA said it was stupid and so did most writers. Ignorance?? Just stating real world, good lick defending smokeless powder in todays litigious society.

    I held an 07 manufactures license for 15 years and trust me insurance is expensive.

    Standards of common knowledge are NO smokeless in a ML push the envelope and good luck to you sir I hope you don't learn the hard way.

  4. #44
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    Another accident but this time trying to shoot out a short started ball. http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fu...hp?tid/292783/
    Aim small, miss small!

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooman76 View Post
    Another accident but this time trying to shoot out a short started ball. http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fu...hp?tid/292783/
    It says I don't have permission, Premium Member Info.

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  6. #46
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    I logged in and then it opened for me.

  7. #47
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    yes, you need to be signed up as a member.

  8. #48
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    , ignorance, IMHO, is failing to learn, but ignorance can be conquered by a free willingness to learn.

    An old geezer willing to still learn,

    Ken
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  9. #49
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    That is why they write "black powder only" on the barrel.
    NRA Benefactor Member NRA Golden Eagle

  10. #50
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    It can be done if you follow this formula precisely.

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  11. #51
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    Do you follow it left to right or right to left...........oh-oh or is it top to bottom or bottom to top......... Im so confused.

  12. #52
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    If the instructions are too hard to follow, you shouldn't play the game.

  13. #53
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    Old man here....still got all my digits...I quit experimenting with things when I was a kid and my cousin handed me a lit 5" salute and said to point it like a roman candle....I have hearing in one ear and just a wee bit in the other...and it took months of pain and work to get the hand back to where it works fine....I trust nothing that I read on the internet unless I know a little more about the person posting...Were I new to reloading or to firearms in general and came upon a "pro and con" thread where seemingly knowledgable folks were discussing using smokeless powder in a b/p rifle...I might read and try to understand what these "experts" were saying and it might sound fun.

    I might just try a little of the experimenting with dire results. I read "pet recipes" all the time on the web and I got a serious doubt about the actual experience of the keyboard commando that does the posting..I think some of the "loads" would be safer using C-4 as a propellant than what they swear is their "tack driver"...

    I may be an old fuddy duddy but if a weapon says black powder only...that's what it's going to get fed....just like if a recipe from a manual says 10 grains of X YZ powder I'm not going to "substitute" some slow burning rifle powder with Bullseye to see if it's going to work...I'd hate to lead some newcomer down the path getting into the technical details that are so confusing to someone and have them "jump" to the end to get the results and hurt themselves...I am not "my Brother's Mother but I might be his Keeper".

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by opos View Post
    Old man here....still got all my digits...I quit experimenting with things when I was a kid and my cousin handed me a lit 5" salute and said to point it like a roman candle....I have hearing in one ear and just a wee bit in the other...and it took months of pain and work to get the hand back to where it works fine....I trust nothing that I read on the internet unless I know a little more about the person posting...Were I new to reloading or to firearms in general and came upon a "pro and con" thread where seemingly knowledgable folks were discussing using smokeless powder in a b/p rifle...I might read and try to understand what these "experts" were saying and it might sound fun.

    I might just try a little of the experimenting with dire results. I read "pet recipes" all the time on the web and I got a serious doubt about the actual experience of the keyboard commando that does the posting..I think some of the "loads" would be safer using C-4 as a propellant than what they swear is their "tack driver"...

    I may be an old fuddy duddy but if a weapon says black powder only...that's what it's going to get fed....just like if a recipe from a manual says 10 grains of X YZ powder I'm not going to "substitute" some slow burning rifle powder with Bullseye to see if it's going to work...I'd hate to lead some newcomer down the path getting into the technical details that are so confusing to someone and have them "jump" to the end to get the results and hurt themselves...I am not "my Brother's Mother but I might be his Keeper".
    So where do the people who would use a black powder substitute like Pyrodex or 777 or the many others safely discuss using those powders. How is a novice to know how fundamentally different H110 is from 777 or Pyrodex is from Lil Gun. This is the internet and visitors need to take everything a little bit skeptically.

    Tim
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    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  15. #55
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    I sure didn't have internet when I bought my first black powder rifle, but I was lucky in the old days they had black powder only, stamped right on the barrel, there were also books you could buy at an unbelievably low price, especially compared to losing fingers.

    As a teenager, when I bought my very first lee loader, I had no mentor and had never heard of any internet. I don't recall even having a proper manual, but belive it or not a guy could make safe ammo that got the job at hand done with the instructions that came with the loader.

    If the guy used shotgun powder in his muzzleloader, and is somewhere between 15 and 80, he needs to get out of the shooting game.

  16. #56
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    Now you know who buys inlines
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooman76 View Post
    there are some that say you could fill it all the way up and it's wouldn't blow up. The majority of the BP wouldn't even burn inside the rifle.

    I have seen this done! About 10 years or so ago my BIL and one of his buddies was arguing this very point and while the BIL (who was saying it could be done) would not hold the rifle he did load an old CVA to within a couple of inches of the muzzle with one patched round ball. He strapped the thing to an old tire and fired it with a string, not very much happened except for a huge belch of smoke and fire most of which occurred as powder burned outside of the barrel. It didn't even make any more noise than a regular load if as much, this was FFG black and I have no idea what would happen with one of the subs.


    Those who will stupidly argue that smokeless can be used in any amount in a muzzle loader meant for BP are failing to consider all the variables, there is FAR more to consider than just the strength of the steel the gun is made from although in most MLs that a serious consideration by itself! To argue that it's ok because it's done all the time with cartridge BP firearms fails to consider that the gas is contained and thus sealed by the cartridge case unlike the loose powder with the nipple sealed only by the thin foil of the cap (T/C included this very warning with it's MLS), the purpose built smokeless MLs have a very different ignition seal than most MLs.


    Also there are far to many variables such as powder compression (consider how critical seating depth can be when handloading cartridges) with some smokeless powders to make any kind of volume comparisons such as that 30% 4198 to BP suggestion, that's just the sort of suggestion that leads to the kind of thing we end up reading about and discussing what happened!

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by triggerhappy243 View Post
    the way I see it.... using smokeless powder in a muzzleloader is like catching a live grenade with pin removed and putting it in your shirt pocket. NO GOOD OUTCOME CAN BE HAD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer in NH View Post
    Standards of common knowledge are NO smokeless in a ML push the envelope and good luck to you sir I hope you don't learn the hard way.
    I would recommend doing some research on smokeless powder breech systems. With the proper breech system and barrel material smokeless is safe in ML's designed for smokeless. You can use smokeless,sub or black in them. I am currently using both the Savage type I and type II breech systems with sabots. My next one will be with large rifle primers and sabot less bullet. You use a full form bullet sizing die made from the barrel so it is a modern false muzzle used in a press to size and pre-rifle the bullet.http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/13487/building-full-form-bullet-sizing

    Good info here on smokeless ML's

    http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/

    http://smokelessmz.com/index.html

    http://www.richardscustomrifles.com/custommuzzleloader.htm

    http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/12570/bp-design-eventual-rifle-build

    http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/10847/idea-smokeless-muzzle-loader

    http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/13487/building-full-form-bullet-sizing\

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmG2p2am6F0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-qrmu4XlI8

    http://www.prbullet.com/700.htm

    http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/6553

    http://www.dsscustomguns.com/custom-smokeless-muzzleloaders.aspx

    http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/13224/new-dd-rem-700-plug

    Last edited by M-Tecs; 12-29-2014 at 01:16 PM.

  19. #59
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    JMO,and everyone knows what that's worth, LOL! The Savage and a few custom built smokeless powder MLs should be as safe as any other gun provided they are loaded properly and I'm willing to bet that the Savage blow-ups were the results of "operator error" otherwise the product liability shyst,,,,,,err, lawyers, would be having a field day with Savage! However these things are purpose designed for smokeless and the problems with smokeless in conventional MLs have been addressed in the design. There simply is no safe way to use smokeless in a conventional ML, sure it has been done without maiming/killing the shooter but then people have played Russian Roulette and lived to tell about it. The problem with conventional MLs is that while under SOME circumstances with all the variables within just the right limits it MIGHT not blow up (that time anyway) the constraints are much to narrow to risk and sooner or later, probably much sooner, it will Ka-Boom!

    I can't help but think again about the statement earlier "What about the black powder equivalent load of 30% by weight of 4198"! WHAT black powder equivalent load of 4198? Where does this come from and how could such a thing even be possible? Sure there may very well be a certain 30% load of 4198 that equates to a given BP load but change just ONE thing such as bullet weight or even seating depth/pressure and that equivalency goes right out the window! Let's assume an example of a 90 grain load of FFG BP with a 300 grain bullet and a 30% by weight load of 4198, example only I have no idea how close that would be but let's assume for discussion that it's a safe load. With the only difference being the powder type and with bullet weight, etc being the same, this may be a safe load but change both bullets to 400 grain and see what happens! With the BP there likely would be slightly more recoil and slightly more pressure but 100 grains additional bullet weight with the 4198 smokeless load could easily become a bomb! So how could there be any kind of "equivalency" conversion using 4198, or any other smokeless, to BP?

    The flaw to this kind of thinking should be obvious, BP is going to burn at a given rate regardless of pressure so while the heavier bullet may cause a slight pressure rise due to increased resistance the burn rate will remain relatively constant but that's not true with smokeless. Pressure rise can be compounded with smokeless, that is if the pressure rises due to increased bullet weight the powder burn rate will change drastically leading to even more pressure and to prevent these pressures from becoming catastrophically high requires tightly controlled conditions such as bullet weight, seating depth/pressure, etc. That's why ANY changes in already established smokeless load data must be approached slowly and with caution and why it is simply impossible to have a safe "equivalent" smokeless load vs a BP load. That "30% by weight" of 4198 might be close to some BP loads but it could be a bomb at the same ratio under other conditions, besides there is still the problem of the ignition system gas seal on conventional MLs.

  20. #60
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    I've been shooting muzzleloaders for over 40 years. In that time, I have double charged several times. It's like dry balling, there are those who have, and those who will. Someone who gets a modern smokeless approved ML is most likely not an experienced ML shooter, and is more likely to double charge. An accident waiting to happen. Then when they blow a rifle, they will blame everything but their own negligence.
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check