Dissecting commy 7.62x39 steel cased ammo.

[Animal]

I spent a little time at my range yesterday with my WASR10 AK variant. I have Tulammo 122gr FMJ and Wolf Military Classic 123gr HP. I also have some handloads I've been trying to develop using Hornaday 123gr SST bullets, Lapua Brass, H4198 and WLR primers. I haven't decided if this load is finished or not, I still think it could be tuned in a little better.

So far my handloads are producing superior results and will probably serve me well when a situation arises that requires a more precise shot (assuming I do my part). I highly doubt I'll ever need a shot greater than 75yds, but I think this round will be the answer in the case I do.

I don't usually pay too much attention to how one brand of cheap Rusky ammo performs verses another... they all seem to serve their purpose. I had noticed that the 122gr FMJ Tula seemed to be a little more accurate than the Wolf WPA, but I never kept track of targets or measured the groups.

After shooting a couple of boxes of both brands yesterday, I am convinced that the Tula is a fair amount more accurate than the Wolf. I would have thought the HP would be more accurate since there is less mass forward of the bearing surface... at least this is my logic. Maybe I'm wrong.

Today, I pulled apart a Wolf and a Tula cartridge to take measurements and hopefully determine if there is any real significant difference. What I noticed:
-The powder looked the same, but this doesn't mean they are. I didn't measure it. I should have.
-Both bullets have an exposed lead core at the base, however the Tula bullet had a diameter of .312 and the Wolf .310
-The Tula case length was approx 1.514 and the Wolf case was approx 1.523

I am not inclined to believe the case length is making a big difference, but I am thinking the difference in bullet diameter is probably significant. It seems that most WASR 10 barrels are generally in the .311-.312 range. Mine is a little more generous at .313.
I had been curious if jacketed bullets with an exposed lead core provide the right conditions for obturation to occur and seal the bore in the same fashion as a properly cast, cast boolit. I did some reading in my Speer manual in the 7.62x39 data section and it reports that this is indeed the case. The exposed lead core is intended to obturate, which should allow for an acceptable seal when fired in barrels with a larger than normal groove diameter.

Now, both Wolf and Tula have the same type of bullet base, but the Tula has the advantage of an extra .002 diameter. I'm curious to know if anyone actually sells the type of bullets Tula uses in their cartridges.

Now, like I stated; my handload out performs the Rusky stuff by a fair margin. However, My Hornaday SST 123gr .310 bullets don't have the benefit of obturation. I can't help but wonder about possible accuracy improvements if they were to obturate while zipping (or rattling) down my big .313 barrel.

I tried using .312 150gr hornaday bullets that were offered by Gaff and Sons, but I didn't feel that they were performing any better... possibly not quiet as well as the 123gr SST. Report was also a bit on the high side, and shot placement shifted enough that I'd have to adjust my sights to use this load.

In short, I suppose I am curious if I should pull about 100 Tula bullets and see how they perform against my Hornaday SST bullets. Since I am unable to find bullets offered with an exposed lead core or in an acceptable weight with a .313 diameter (which would be the holy grail for my barrel) I am inclined to develop a proper load with the Tula bullets. I realize that a lot of heads will role at the notion of using "cheap" Tula bullets in hopes of gaining accuracy when Hornaday makes a high quality bullet for this cartridge... However, my curiosity needs to quench its thirst.

If I'm obsessing over details that are insignificant for this rifle and/or the ranges I'm shooting, please chime in. I tend to obsess over these types of details. This is the only rifle cartridge I handload, so I don't have a great deal of experiences to rely on for understanding how these variables impact the performance of a bottle-kneck cartridge.

NOTE: I full length size my brass. All the manuals seem to suggest that this is a must for an automatic loading rifle.
NOTE: I'm not handloading this caliber for cost savings, I'm handloading for it because I enjoy handloading and quality ammunition.
NOTE: As much as I'd like to try casting for this cartridge, I just feel better about jacketed bullets at this time.

Thanks folks

[petroid]

An easy way to refine the Tula ammo would be to pull the bullets, weight sort them, measure the powder from each case, and see how much variance there is, then recharge with an accurate powder weight and sorted bullets. It's called "mexican match" and you could substitute different bullets and powders if you wanted to as well.

[mac1911]

Your findings will shift on every batch of steel cased ammo you inspect.
I dissected all sorts of wolf/silver,Brown bear, barnul(sp?) Yugo detect.
I found both ball and stick powder in a 20 round box of wolf. I pulled 10 bullets from 4 brands. I had bullets that went from 309-312 even a mix in the Brown bear. I also had a large range of weights and a few bullets that looked like the lead core was incomplete.
To date my best shooting cheap or surplus ammo is the brass cased yogo ammo and the Russian stuff from the late 80s labeled as loaded to "hunting specification" hollow point bullet powder charge was on,average 26 grains...bullets actually look nice and weighed 124 gn with about a +/- of 2 grains.
I like golden tiger also before wolf or tula

[lup]

If you wanted to really try to get .313 bullets, that's really close to 8mm.(7.95) Maybe you can find undersized 8mm bullets or run 8 mm bullets through a push through sizer and bring them down to size.

[GhostHawk]

I pulled apart some Tulammo for mexican match purposes. (Along with some Privi Partizan and Red Army Standard, both brass with boxer primers)

I was amazed at the differences between rounds. Powder would vary from 24 grains to 26.5 grains "In the same box!"

The Privi Partizan had the most consistent ammo of anything I'd looked at. Granted it is more expensive than the cheap stuff, but your paying for brass too, and it is VERY reloadable good brass.

The only thing I didn't like about the Red Army Standard was the black tarry stuff around the bullet. Man those bullets are hard to pull, and have to be cleaned afterwords. Then powder likes to stick to the sides. ARggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Russians!

Anyway, over time I accumulated enough brass that I no longer buy the cheap stuff.

[Animal]

Thanks for all your replies. I did another search and wasn't able to find any bullets that I felt comfortable testing with.
I revisited my notes/targets on the Hornaday (.312) 150gr Gaff and Sons SST. It seems that my main concerns were dealing with 'excessive pressure' symptoms before I found the bullets sweet spot. I did manage to nab a 1 11/16 shot group with iron sights at 40yds (5 rounds) before the pressure signs occurred. I'd say that shows more promise than I gave it credit for. I think the H4198 does well with the 123gr, but I might need to try something slower with the heavier bullet. I've got a couple of pounds of Reloader7 and H335 that I haven't touched. Looks like it is time to use what I have on hand to see what I can do with this bullet. Thanks folks.

[dnepr]

One trick I stumbled over with my sks that might be worth considering is reducing powder charges .
I found this by accident . I was working as a tourist camp manager , which means I could drive about 8 minutes away from work any time Things were slow and send a few rounds downrange but there was no scheduled time off per say. So if there was a problem in the camp I had to deal with it whenever it occurred meaning I wasnt positive I would get a chance to clean my rifle that night. So corrosive milsurp , which I have lots of, wasn't a good idea . So I pulled the bullets and powder from milsurp and but it into reloads with regular boxer primed brass .
The next problem is an sks throws its brass almost as far as it does the bullet . I hate loosing good brass , so I reduced the powder charge to the point it wouldn't cycle then went back up a grain and got reliable operation and brass landing about 6 feet away .
The unexpected bonus was these loads went into a group 1/2 to 2/3 the size of milsurp , I later tried downloading some Czech milsurp stuff in the original steel cases like this . It wasn't quite as good but still better than the full power stuff.
This brings the velocity down to the 1700 fps range so may not be a good plan for long range work but for putting a hole in a pop can or paper , or smacking a steel swinger out to about 100 yards it seems to work well for me , I have no idea if this will work in an AK variant , we aren't allowed those here in Canada 😞 but something to consider

[Bob Maerdian]

My USSR SKS shoots lead bullets sized .314 far better than jacketed bullets. It is also much more pleasant to shoot from my 77 yo frame.

Bob 11B50

[freebullet]

Thanks for sharing your results.

You have presented the reasons you should start casting.

[Explorer1]

"Powder would vary from 24 grains to 26.5 grains "In the same box!""

Manufacturer's don't load to powder weight or even volume. They load to a pressure level, based on the BULK powders which are available. And blending powders is common - but remember they have lots of expensive equipment that allows them to know what is happening when they do such things.

Not to mention they have powder batches we will never see. OK, rarely see - as there are occasional bulk powder releases, such as the slow burning stuff for the BMG and bigger cartridges.

[truckjohn]

I have personally found that just like every single *Other* ammo on the face of the earth - 7.62x39 does exhibit significant variation between brands/models... Even within different "Spec" within the same manufacturer... For example - a 124g SP, HP, and FMJ Wolf all shoot differently... Same for the 122g vs 124g...

This flies in the face of the usual idea that "Russian" ammo is all the same - and that 124g FMJ is 124g FMJ no matter who makes it.... But... You can tell a difference when you shoot it...

AND... Each of my rifles has a different preference for ammo....

I found that the differences are quite pronounced - especially when you are talking shooting to the sights... Some ammo shoots 3-4" off the sights, some shoots right on the sights....

Thanks

[oldsagerat]

I am curious if you have noticed barrel wear from the steel jacketed bullets?

[milrifle]

I believe he is referring to the cartridge case, not the bullet jacket. A lot of the import ammo has steel cartridge cases instead of brass.

[725]

Somebody on this site was experimenting with heavy boolits for the SKS. As I remember, 180 gr boolits or so. Getting accurate results. Maybe he will chime in. This is an interesting topic.

[pacomdiver]

i remember that topic, think it was 200g actually

[GhostHawk]

That was me, Lee .312 185 gr gas checks but with gas check and lube they weigh in around 190.

Loaded over 20 gr of IMR 4895 I had very good accuracy and those big pills hit hard. Mostly PPU brass and CCI LR primers.

Your mileage may vary.

I am in the process of trying to get a Handi Rifle fitted for a 7.62x39 barrel with scope so I can discover how good they really are, and at what distances.

The truly fun part of working that load up was watching the groups start bigger than a grapefruit with factory rounds.
Then as I shot it more, the groups started shrinking until at the end I think if you'd set a quarter out there at 50 yards I could have hit it.
I was certainly hitting fragments of clay pigeon no larger than that every time I pulled the trigger. It was shooting exactly to point of aim.

I did have some leading but better lube seems to have solved it. I commonly see a small ring of lead where the gas tube goes into the barrel block. But it seems to cause no problems. To tell the truth I enjoy tinkering with the old SKS so it isn't much of a chore to take it all apart, clean it all up and reassemble.

[Garyshome]

Animal...seems to me you should slug the barrel, that should answer a few of your questions.

[Hickok]

I have cut the FMJ's in the Wolf and Tula ammo in half, and the nose section is hollow on the rounds, no lead in the first 1/3 of the bullet. I believe all they do to make a hp bullet is nip a little off the tip of the bullet on an fmj and sell it as an hp.

[WineMan]

I had to pull some bullets from Greek HXP 30-06 recently. It also has the black sealant on the bullet. I seated them slightly deeper then pulled them. Still hard to pull but not the effort of unseated bullets.

Dave

[pakmc]

I brought a palmetto 7.62x39 upper. with my reloads I've gotten several 1 inch groups with it(at 100 yards). I have a a small batch of .310 123 gr. bullets and that was what I was using. I tried using some 125gr. .308 bullets and the accuracy with the same as the 310 bullet till I got to 100 yards. at 100 yards I was getting 2 and 3 inch groups, both bullets are jacketed with soft points. I'm using the recomended powder for this (AA1680) but I was using steel cases.(yes, I deprime them and I have berdan primers) they don't stretch, but are a little hard to resize. I do have winchester boxer primed brass, but I have a lot more time and berdan primers then winchester brass. but the palmetto upper is a lot tighter then my Chinese SKS. and what ever the rest of the guys at the range are shooting. There is some berdan brass that's brass, it's very soft brass and the rim is beaten almost flat at firing. this soft brass isn't good for reloading. and someone said the the powder and bullets are different in the same batch. also the steel cases are different also. but I've had no problems with the upperat all. it just runs.
Pat