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Thread: Ammonpulver Project Update

  1. #1
    Boolit Master Linstrum's Avatar
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    Ammonpulver Project Update

    Every once in awhile I think of something or run across information relevant to ammonpulver and post it. For those of you who don't know what ammonpulver is, it was the first truly smokeless propellant, it dates from the 1880s, and was used by the Austrian military in their canons and hand grenades through World War One and again by the Germans at the very end of World War Two for canons and hand grenades. It is made from ammonium nitrate and pure charcoal (yep, that's all there is to it, folks!) in the proportion of 86.96% ammonium nitrate to 13.04% charcoal but 87% and 13% are close enough, and I used 85% and 15% quite satisfactorily. For those of you who may think this is the best news since sliced bread, don't go running out and try using it because it has several severe problems associated with it. If it were the godsend it seems to be we would already be using it in everything from .22LR to .50 BMG, but we obviously aren't. The following photo is one BIG reason why we aren't. The cartridges disintegrated about 4 months after I loaded them back in 2004. After ten years I haven't dissected them to see if the IMR4895 booster charges are decomposed or if the primers still go bang after a decade, but whatever the case, they were obviously not usable just a few months after assembling the components. For those of you who have studied chemistry, what happened is not a mystery since both the copper and zinc of brass alloy are soluble in ammonium compounds by way of forming Werner Coordination Complex Ion compounds with ammonium. I knew what would happen before I loaded the cartridges, I just wanted to see how long it would take and what it would look like. When loaded fresh and used immediately, I have had good results with ammonpulver, but the necessity of having to wash your $500 rifle including all the wood to remove any highly corrosive ammonium nitrate residue and then dry it is an inconvenience that is insurmountable to most shooters. I accomplished doing that by dunking my rifles in hot water and then drying them in a large vacuum chamber at about 29 inches vacuum.

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    From a 2009 post I wrote at:

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ht=ammonpulver

    About ammonpulver, I'm coming into this thread a bit late, but maybe somebody will see it.


    I did a series of very extensive experiments with ammonpulver in rifle cartridges about four or five years ago and posted the results here, they are probably still here back in about 2004, or so..

    Ammonpulver is a very energetic powder with an energy content about equal to powders like 2400, Blue Dot, or Bullseye, which are all quite powerful. Its burn rate is controlled the same way as other powders by changing the grain size, and I found that the ammonpulver I made ranged in burn rate from about IMR3031 or IMR4895 down to around IMR4350 in granulations about like corn meal on down to Cream of Wheat, the finer the granulation the faster it burns. It is also flashless as well as a truly smokeless powder, the combustion products are nitrogen, carbon monoxide, and water in the form of steam; all of which are clear colorless gases. Because of the inevitable ash from the wood charcoal, a very tiny amount of smoke in the form of a colloidal dust is briefly seen, and when the temperature is low and humidity high the condensed steam is also seen as "smoke" that very rapidly disappears.


    As has already been mentioned, ammonpulver is simply a finely ground mixture of carefully dried ammonium nitrate and charcoal (ammonium nitrate is highly hygroscopic and readily absorbs moisture from the air and when left out in the open it turns into a soupy puddle), the range of proportions that prove useful are from about 80% ammonium nitrate and 20% charcoal, to 90% ammonium nitrate and 10% charcoal. The chemically balanced equation gives very close to 86.96% ammonium nitrate and 13.04% charcoal (87% and 13% are close enough). However, I did all my experiments with the most commonly used proportions of 85% ammonium nitrate and 15% dead-burnt charcoal. It is of utmost importance to use dead-burnt charcoal since the creosotes left from partially roasted wood make the powder unstable and possibly subject to spontaneous ignition. The partially roasted wood charcoal that was used for canon powder by the U.S. Navy in the 1890s is probably what blew up the U.S. battleship Maine in Havana Harbor in Cuba in 1898, setting off the Spanish American War. At the time in 1898, it was rumored that a Spanish torpedo or sea mine was responsible for the Maine sinking, however later problems with auto-ignition of the so-called "cocoa powder" made using partially roasted charcoal that was still a reddish-brown color is most likely what ignited the canon powder magazine aboard the Maine, blowing it up and sinking it in seconds. Anyway, to be safe, the charcoal used for making ammonpulver should conduct electricity, ensuring that it is dead burnt and has no creosote left in it.


    Ammonpulver is by far the safest powder to make, it can be repeatedly pounded with a 16-oz ball-peen hammer on a steel anvil without igniting it or detonation, unlike black powder and most other smokeless powders, and when it does burn unconfined it just barely burns. I tested this myself over and over again, and to be sure of its characteristics I even spread 100 grains of ammonpulver in a thick layer on an aluminum baking sheet in a toaster oven with a door that did not latch, and then from a safe distance I turned the heat up while using binoculars to watch through the Pyrex window in the oven door to see what happened. At about the melting point of the ammonium nitrate it finally ignited, quietly glowing orange for about 15 seconds until nothing but a tiny pinch of ash from the wood charcoal was left. I would not recommend doing that with 100 grains of Blue Dot!

    I eventually tested several loads in 7.62x54R Russian, .30-06, 6.5 Swedish Mauser, and 7.5x54 French. With just a regular large rifle primer nothing happens, the bullet lodges in the barrel throat with the charge of ammonpulver behind it, making a mess in the cartridge well when I opened the bolt. In researching how ammonpulver was used by the Austrians in their canon loads, I never did find out how they ignited the ammonpulver. After finding that just a primer by itself did nothing to ignite the powder, I started out with small amounts IMR4895 over the flash hole and equally small amounts of ammonpulver on top of it separated from the IMR4895 by a thin tuft of toilet tissue to keep the two materials out of contact with one another. I fired my duplex-charged cartridges in a junker Mosin-Nagant, that rifle having been proven to be darned hard to blow up by a member here at Cast Boolits who did a blow-up test using Bullseye or a similar fast powder. Using the same rifle over and over again for the blow-up test, he never succeeded in getting the barrel to rupture or getting anything to let go violently, it finally just bent the bolt and melted the brass cartridge after several full cases of fast shotgun/pistol powder. I chose a Mosin-Nagant because of his test, and when I first fired my rifle I lowered it down a hole in the ground with a string on the trigger in case something did fly apart. I used successively larger amounts of IMR4895 and fine grain-sizeammonpulver until as I recall I had about 25% IMR4895 as a booster/initiator and 75%ammonpulver with a total combined propellant weight of somewhere around 45 grains pushing a 150 or 180-grain .311 jacketed bullet (I don't remember the exact powder charge and bullet weight, I need to look it up in my notes). I kept an eye on the primers for signs of pressure and never had anything bad show up over quite a few test firings. When I finally fired the rifle above ground, I compared performance with a standard IMR4895 load and from "reading" the depth of bullet penetration into the clay bank I used for my backstop I figured the velocity was somewhere around 2200 feet per second from the 20-inch barrel of my model 59 Mosin-Nagant carbine. I recall that the odor of the ammonpulver smoke was quite pleasant, having an odor a bit reminiscent of almonds.


    I did some math on powder charges and came up with a formula I used for calculatingammonpulver loads based on cartridge length-to-volume ratios and the base 10 logarithm of the powder weight. I also need to look that up in my notes.


    When I was done for the day with testing loads, I thoroughly washed the rifle inside and out in hot water and liquid dish detergent to keep any ammonium nitrate residue from rusting things to pieces, it is just as corrosive as using chlorate primers! Also, to make sure the rifle was thoroughly dried out, I made a vacuum chamber to dry it in from of a piece of 4" (I think it is 4", I haven't taken my vacuum chamber out of storage yet from moving) schedule 80 PVC plastic water pipe with end caps. I needed the vacuum chamber since I was also going to try out ammonpulver loads in my Remington 700 BDL .30-06, Swedish m96 Mauser, and others, and I sure didn't want to rust up my $600 Remington 700 BDL!


    Anyway, I found out that ammonpulver works darned good in cartridges like the ones I mentioned, and when boosted with about 25% by weight of IMR4895 it behaves about like IMR3031 or IMR4895 on down to IMR4350, depending on granulation. If I ever get low on powder (a little is still needed for a booster) I can still keep on shooting as long as I have fertilizer-grade ammonium nitrate and good low-ash soft charcoal (like from grape vines, willow, avocado, or even white pine wood) available. Compared to regular black powder made with saltpeter, charcoal, and sulfur, it is extremely safe to make, as well as it leaves absolutely no residue at all.


    rl576

    Another old thread of interest is at:

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ht=ammonpulver

    rl 1,201
    Last edited by Linstrum; 11-15-2014 at 07:20 AM.
    ~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+
    There is no such thing as too many tools, especially when it comes to casting and reloading.
    Howard Hughes said: "He who has the tools rules".

    Safe casting and shooting!

    Linstrum, member F.O.B.C. (Fraternal Order of Boolit Casters), Shooters.com alumnus, and original alloutdoors.com survivor.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master




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    Well you have made me a believer, I wont be using the stuff.
    Good info!
    Je suis Charlie
    ΔΕΞΑΙ
    Rednecks run the Brits out of this country years ago,
    I will defend this country from anyone or thing that tries to take it from me or mine
    I AM A REDNECK!!!
    "If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government,our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." Samuel Adams, 1776

  3. #3
    Boolit Master Linstrum's Avatar
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    If you have an old beater rifle that you don't mind getting rusty it is fun to play with. It won't always rust up your rifle, if you get your load boosted properly so it burns completely there is zero corrosive residue. For 7.62x54R in Mosin-Nagant I get complete combustion with 28 grains ammonpulver boosted with 6.7 grains of IMR4895 over the flash hole pushing the Lee C-312-185R 185 grain boolit. I never chronographed the load (I may now that I have a decent chronograph) but I suspect it is around 2000 fps.

    rl 1,204
    ~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+
    There is no such thing as too many tools, especially when it comes to casting and reloading.
    Howard Hughes said: "He who has the tools rules".

    Safe casting and shooting!

    Linstrum, member F.O.B.C. (Fraternal Order of Boolit Casters), Shooters.com alumnus, and original alloutdoors.com survivor.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master




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    That is just it, I am not into old beaters. LOL
    The old Nagants and such were not made left handed.
    I have not been reloading long and have not read enough about
    duplex loading of powder and do not want to find the limits on my own.
    Je suis Charlie
    ΔΕΞΑΙ
    Rednecks run the Brits out of this country years ago,
    I will defend this country from anyone or thing that tries to take it from me or mine
    I AM A REDNECK!!!
    "If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government,our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." Samuel Adams, 1776

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Wow!

    In a world where "WROL, TSHTF, and TEOTWAWKI are common every day words I am supprised more people are not more interested in this!

    It seems to me that some more testing would be required. Only instead of modern smokeless I think we should be testing in Muzzle Loader guns with small booster charges of holy black then a small additional charge of the Ammonpulver.

    If for no other reason, than it pretty much "burns" clean, and "might" give a holy black shooter more shots, and more power, with a product that can still be made on the farm.

    That seems like something worth looking at to me.

    However it seems that I have lost or traded all my holy black shooting guns. So someone else will have to do the testing.

    This ol boy doesn't feel so inclined.

    What about mixing the 2? What about a made from scratch blend of Potassium Nitrate and Ammonium Nitrate and sulfur and charcoal?

    This farm boy wants to know.

    Be careful out there!

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy
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    Are the percentages by weight or volume? Thanks lreed

  7. #7
    Boolit Master Linstrum's Avatar
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    By convention, all formulas where chemistry, physics, or industrial processes are involved the percentages or units are ALWAYS by weight unless specifically stated, and then the only times where volumes are used the processes always involve liquids and gases where the temperatures are also specifically stated. The only times volumes are ever commonly used are instances where exact amounts are not important to getting good results.

    rl 1,205
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    There is no such thing as too many tools, especially when it comes to casting and reloading.
    Howard Hughes said: "He who has the tools rules".

    Safe casting and shooting!

    Linstrum, member F.O.B.C. (Fraternal Order of Boolit Casters), Shooters.com alumnus, and original alloutdoors.com survivor.

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy
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    I knew someone had done testing with this! Thank you for posting your results as well as all the ancillary interesting information.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master



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    Interesting.

    Looks like a caseless/polymer/celluloid would theoretically get around the case corrosion issue for storage. Boundary separation of some sort for the primer. Of course, cleaning of firearm immediately after shooting would be mandatory, just as it was for many decades before the general fielding of non-corrosive primers.

    Only problem is that after many nations have attempted the caseless/polymer/celluloid "Brass Replacement"; we have yet to see a commercially success solution. Star gazing: How about a carbon fiber case replacement, AmonPulver shouldn't affect that as a case replacement.
    Mustang

    "In the beginning... the patriot is a scarce man, and brave and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain.

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy ofitg's Avatar
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    How about coating the case interiors with lacquer?
    "Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto."

    - Thomas Jefferson


  11. #11
    Boolit Master Linstrum's Avatar
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    The Austrians and Germans coated the insides of their grenades and brass canon cartridge cases with pitch or asphalt to prevent the ammonium reaction and corrosion. There are better preservatives now, but what was available 130 years ago worked very adequately. Temperature stability of ammonium nitrate crystal structure has also been solved, but that runs into the problem of leaving dirty solid residue and creating smoke from the stabilizing salts like black powder does, which is what nitrocellulose smokeless gets away from. I don't like cleaning guns and my High Standard .22 Sport King rifle I bought in 1962 I've only cleaned once, which is the beauty of smokeless powder and good bullet lube.

    One aspect of smokeless powder we never think about is the benefit of not having any visible cloud of smoke. In about the year 1897 in I believe Tucson, Arizona, there was a pursuit and shoot-out between a sheriff's posse and a bad guy. The posse guys were armed with black powder rifles and the bad guy was armed with a new Winchester model 1894 rifle in .30 WCF (now called .30-30). The bad guy was woefully outnumbered and caught on a hillside in some rocks, but he kept his pursuers pinned down in broad daylight all day long because the lawmen could not see him or his gun smoke while the lawmen were shot back at every time they fired a shot because of the big puffs of white smoke from their black powder guns displaying their exact locations. When it got dark the bad guy and his model 1894 Winchester .30 WCF rifle simply walked away never to be seen again. I think the posse members not wanting to get killed played a big part in the escape of the wanted man, but so did smokeless powder!

    rl 1,207
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    There is no such thing as too many tools, especially when it comes to casting and reloading.
    Howard Hughes said: "He who has the tools rules".

    Safe casting and shooting!

    Linstrum, member F.O.B.C. (Fraternal Order of Boolit Casters), Shooters.com alumnus, and original alloutdoors.com survivor.

  12. #12
    Boolit Bub oldlincoln's Avatar
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    How would powder coating the inside of the cases work out to prevent corrosion I wonder? Have the use of fast burning powders as an initiator been tried?
    This research is very interesting and could be of significant use when expedient methods are called for. Thanks for sharing your work.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master



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    I believe that coating process for inside of the case would be of exceptional importance. Any spaces not covered, including those not necessarily visile to the eye would be a place where the ammonia could attack the casing, resulting in a small hole in the case wall under the uncovered location but a spreading reaction greater than the size of the uncovered location.

    Years ago steel SCUBA tanks were coated with an epoxy style coating sprayed in the tank. Any location not covered or damaged would allow ambient moisture if present to attack the steel. Under pressure, there are exceptionally large numbers of Oxygen molecules available to react with the steel. Visual inspection would often fail to pick up corrosion that crept under the epoxy coating. This is the reason that over the last 40 years the Aluminum tank has become the predominant SCUBA tank.

    Seems that a plating might be the better answer to form a barrier to the ammonia. As the home experimenter pursues these mental gymnastics, it becomes obvious that a lot of development and effort would be required to achieve a good solution, the Law of "Necessity as the Mother of Invention" has fortunately not kicked in. Seems that the best solution currently if one wants to use AmmonPulver; is to only load up cases right before you are going to use them since storage results in structural failure.
    Mustang

    "In the beginning... the patriot is a scarce man, and brave and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master 35 shooter's Avatar
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    It's amazing what i learn every time i log on to cast boolits. It simply never stops.Thanks for the info and your work with it...just stay safe lol. I seem to dimly remember hearing of this somewhere in the past, but really didn't have a clue how it was made or where it originated.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Doesn't steel hold up better to ammonium nitrate? I wonder how a reloaded lacquered steel case would hold up?

  16. #16
    Boolit Master Linstrum's Avatar
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    Iron doesn't form Werner coordination complex ions with the ammonium ion and dissolve, but equally just as bad, iron is quite readily attacked and dissolved by the nitrate ion of the ammonium nitrate because, unlike cellulose nitrate, the ammonium nitrate molecule dissociates into its ammonium and nitrate parts.

    You could use lacquered steel, and it is worthy of experimenting with. However, the way they did it back in the 1880s was to use asphalt, which also worked. If I were going to experiment around with long term storage of loaded ammonpulver cartridges, I would try using just plain roofing asphalt dissolved in paint thinner grade heating kerosene to make up a solution about like pancake syrup and use it to coat the insides of Boxer-primed steel cartridges by pouring about a 1/4 teaspoon of asphalt-kerosene solution in, thoroughly swabbing it around with a long cotton Q-Tip, pouring more in to fill each cartridge all the way full, and then pouring it all back out and letting them drain so only a thin residue is left. I'd put the coated cartridges in the sun or a warm place to dry for a few days or a week. Kerosene won't harm the ammonium nitrate but it may harm the IMR4895 booster. Remember, ANFO is a mixture of ammonium nitrate and diesel fuel and the residual kerosene and asphalt would behave just like ANFO with the ammonium nitrate. In fact, ANFO is very similar to to ammonpulver and may be a faster version of it. I would also use cast lead wheel weight projectiles because they are impervious to ammonium nitrate, and paint their bottoms with the same roofing asphalt material to water-proof them. After a year I'd do a pull-down to see what is going on inside the cartridges before firing one, keeping in mind that firing pressure goes up with finer powder granulation size, not coarser.

    All this stuff was worked out between the 1880s and 1945, and it is too bad the knowledge was not kept, it being thought back then that there would never be any need to use ammonpulver again.

    rl 1,211
    Last edited by Linstrum; 11-21-2014 at 03:36 AM.
    ~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+~+:/&\:+
    There is no such thing as too many tools, especially when it comes to casting and reloading.
    Howard Hughes said: "He who has the tools rules".

    Safe casting and shooting!

    Linstrum, member F.O.B.C. (Fraternal Order of Boolit Casters), Shooters.com alumnus, and original alloutdoors.com survivor.

  17. #17
    Boolit Mold
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    Hey, Linstrum! I know that this is a long-dead thread, but this is my first post, and considering one of my primary interests pertaining to firearms is self-sufficiency, I'd like to discuss the data you collected on Ammonpulver. Perhaps most fascinating is the mixture's potential as a home-brew replacement for smokeless powder under dire circumstances; i.e., the frequently discussed SHTF situation, where industry has all but crumbled and homemade components, in addition to the ability to reload, are absolutely essential. That said, do you think there would be a do-it-yourself compound that could be used in place of the commercially manufactured IMR powder as a kick charge? Perhaps a priming compound like potassium perchlorate, lead azide/styphnate etc., or would the sudden pressure spike triggered by detonation blow the gun apart? Also, you demonstrated the profound affects of the Ammonpulver on brass casings; couldn't this be avoided by coating the inside of the casings with varnish, or by using steel casings? I know none of this is ideal, but (as alluded to earlier) one of my goals is to accumulate knowledge that would allow me to maintain some semblance of modern firearms technology without the support of industrial infrastructure...such a reality (were it ever to come to be) is less than ideal. Thanks, and I hope to hear from you soon!

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master leftiye's Avatar
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    I wonder How ammonpulver would be as stump "puller"? Probly not so hot as is ammonium nitrate/aluminum powder (and maybe a little flour, - or nitromethane).
    We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).

    Every "freedom" (latitude) given to government is a loophole in the rule of law. Every loophole in the rule of law is another hole in our freedom. When they even obey the law that is. Too often government seems to feel itself above the law.

    We forgot to take out the trash in 2012, but 2016 was a charm! YESSS!

  19. #19
    Boolit Master

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    Good information, but I hope we don't get to the point that we have to rely on this as a source of powder.
    NRA Benefactor Member NRA Golden Eagle

  20. #20
    Boolit Bub
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    Connor, I have a pyrotechnic book that discusses some formulas for ammonium nitrate propellants. I'll dig it out to see what it says tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure it talks about potassium perchlorate and TNT. It also discusses coating the granules with graphite, which might protect against corrosion.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check