38 spl, How low can i go?

[jeepyj]

I'm trying to develop the lightest load I can for a 38 spl. The idea is to help keep peace at one of the places I shoot. The mould is Lyman 358345, a great little 115gr boolit that data is quite sparse for, at least for the 38. So far the lowest I've dared to go is 2.0 grains of Bullseye in which is traveling an average of 607fps out of my 6.5" Blackhawk. This was a recent chrono test I did testing for groups and such. I wouldn't say it's the tightest groups I've ever shot but were quite respectable. This will simply be a tin can plinker when all is said and done.
This data came from an trashcan wadcutter in an old Lyman manual. Any other members with thoughts on this boolit?
jeepyj

[paul h]

I haven't had the chance to try that in a revolver, but when I was fiddling with "cat sneeze" loads in my 35 whelen and 148 wc's I was using a 22rf case that was cut down to about 1/8" long before the bullets would stick in the bore. You could probably go a bit lower, but beware at some point you'll be sticking bullets in the bore, though if you cast soft it's not a big deal to drive one out. Also with my cat sneeze loads I was using a dab of tp to keep the powder over the primer, something to consider when dropping way down.

If you can live with the report and accuracy of the 2 gr loads I'd call it good.

[leeggen]

til you start sticking the boolits in the barrel then move up alittle. I know this isn't load data but evry barrel has its point.
CD

[dragon813gt]

til you start sticking the boolits in the barrel then move up alittle. I know this isn't load data but evry barrel has its point.
CD

Yep, just have a squib rod handy. I found how low I can go w/ W231 in A 6" 586.

[35remington]

Merely tip the barrel up before firing to position the powder near the primer. A lot of case space is inevitable with light bullets in the 38, even with wadcutters if they are light.

At the Lincoln Parks and Rec range they offered a load very similar to yours.....a short wadcutter.....with a charge I identified as very similar to about 2 grains Bullseye. At least, the powder looked exactly like Bullseye, and I have been around enough Bullseye to know. You had to buy the load from them and turn in the cases when you were done. This was to prevent damage to a backstop that was intended for 22's only, but the 38 shooters got to play with the light wadcutter and get some shooting in. It was an indoor (doublewide trailer, actually) 50 foot range.

Handloads were not allowed in 38's, nor any other ammo than what they provided. Yeah, I actually took a bullet puller to the range and tore down one of the rounds to see what it might be loaded with.

Sounds just like yours. The tuna can sized bullets shot very well at 50 feet.

[Hannibal]

I have it on what I consider sound advice that Bullseye works particularly well when trying to find loads that barely exit the barrel. My purpose was to inspect for base deformation on cast boolits.

[jeepyj]

I haven't had the chance to try that in a revolver, but when I was fiddling with "cat sneeze" loads in my 35 whelen and 148 wc's I was using a 22rf case that was cut down to about 1/8" long before the bullets would stick in the bore. You could probably go a bit lower, but beware at some point you'll be sticking bullets in the bore, though if you cast soft it's not a big deal to drive one out. Also with my cat sneeze loads I was using a dab of tp to keep the powder over the primer, something to consider when dropping way down.

If you can live with the report and accuracy of the 2 gr loads I'd call it good.

Interesting point with the TP. I also noticed at the time I was using the chrono that there was something like an 85fps spread on 12 rounds. 607 was my average. Seems like that would bring a bit more consistency to my load. Does anyone have thoughts on this?
jeepyj

[bedbugbilly]

What is the issue where you shoot? Noise or just the fact you're shooting?

If you want to try something different, try getting some 38 Colt Short cases and loading those. Yea, you'll have bullet jump from the short cartridge to the barrel but I shoot Colt Shorts a lot out of my 357 5 1/2 New Vaquero and 4 3/4 Uberti Bisley. I normally load a Lyman 311242 121 gr RN or a Lee 356-120-TC "as cast". I've been using 2.0 gr of Bulls Eye or 2.4 gr of Red Dot with either one. I don't know if it would cut down on the noise though if that is the issue. They work fairly well for just general plinking and can killing. Noise, etc. isn't a problem as I shoot on the farm so I haven't reduced those loads to see how far down I can go. And, I don't have a chronograph. Based on those loads with a 120 gr boolit - and I'm going by the Lyman data for the 38 Smith & Wesson cartridge which has a similar case size - the BE loads should be going around 560 - 600 FPS and the RD around 600 - 650 = but thus a guess on my part. Of course the shorter casing is going to give you less case volume so pressure is more than a 38 spl casing. I think you could reduce those charges a ways and still be fine.

I will also add that the above 38 Colt Short loads are nice to shoot out of a Smith J frame for plinking as well.

A standard set of 38 spl won't work on the 38 Colt Shorts/Longs. I now have a set of Lee dies just for them but before that, I sized in a Lee 38 spl carbide sizing die, slightly belled the mouth with a Lee universal expander die, seated with my 9mm seating die and then taper crimped with a 9mm taper crimp die. With the cartridge being what it is, a taper crimp will work fine - I just check them in a 38 spl cartridge gauge. 38 Colt Short Star Line brass is available through Track of the Wolf as well as others when they have it. A 100 casings should run around $19.00 or so.

As far as "squibs" - I can tell you that an uncharged casing with a CCI small pistol primer had no problems putting a .358 148 gr. WC just past the forcing cone in my Smith Model 36 snub. Just don't ask me how that all came about! If you keep dropping your grain weight, just make sure to check between shots to make sure it left the barrel. The best way is to just make up some batches and drop the grain weight and see when it causes a problem with your pistol. Then, increase the grain weight back up so you feel confident you won't get any.

Good luck and let us know how it goes for you.

[olafhardt]

Years ago I used to get remanufactered 38 special from Midway with 100 gr wc's. I think Blackhills made it.

[happy7]

I have done quite a bit of experimenting in this area. As was said, you can keep reducing the load till the bullet sticks in the barrel. However, there are a couple issues with that. My experience is that once you get under about roughly 500 fps, accuracy is not great, and only becomes worse as you get slower. Also, point of impact changes quite a bit.

A good crimp is important as it does improve the consistency of the burn, which becomes inconsistent at the lighter loads, at least in my experience.

Bullseye is a good powder for this, and before Trail Boss came out, this is what I used. I like Trail Boss better. It burns similar to Bullseye, but fills the case better (although at loads that low, the case is still basically empty), and also because of its low density, it is much easier to measure when you get to very low loads, like one grain, which some powder drops are not capable of measuring.

[WRideout]

One thing to keep in mind if you are using absolute lowest charge weight, is ambient temperature. As a former artillery man, I can tell you that propellant temperature has a great deal to do with chamber pressure. A load that does not stick on a warm day, may do so on a very cold day. FWIW.

Wayne

[Digital Dan]

Fella can sure find some benefit from light loads, but one needs to pay close attention...

[osteodoc08]

8 rounds. Wow.

[rhbrink]

Ever think about trying round ball loads? Quiet, low recoil, accurate, cheap!

RB

[Char-Gar]

I can see the fun and benefit of using light loads in a 38 Special, but I don't think going to low as to flirt with a stuck bullet is all that smart. i would want the load to be sufficient to shove the bullet to the intended target regardless of ambient temp or muzzle position.

Last year in a rapid fire falling plate match, I had a "puffer" in my Douglas barrel match 22 LR pistol. This was followed with a full power load. I removed two bullets from the barrel. While the heavy bull barrel showed no enlargement on the outside, there is a shadow ring inside the barrel. I still use the pistol, but even a lowly 22 bullet stuck in the barrel can cause damage to the barrel.

[Outpost75]

Many years ago William Dresser wrote an article entitled "Minimum Loads In Handguns" in which he used soft-swaged 148-grain factory wadcutter bullets in the .38 Special, flush-seated, testing in a 6" K38 and also in a 2" snubby. The flush-seated wadcutters work best for this because they reduce the amount of free airspace in the case. Once you start taking conventional bullets and seating them out to a length of greater than about 1.25", you can get variations due to changes in powder positioning.

I have worked up minimum loads which give me good accuracy to 50 yards in my rook rifle, and which reliably and safely exit the rifle barrel. The lightest charge of current production Alliant Bullseye which accomplishes this is 2 grains when loading a soft-swaged hollow-based wadcutter flush to the case mouth, applying a normal taper crimp as you would use in an autoloading match pistol, or 2.5 grains when using 155-160 grain soft cast Cowboy style bullets seated to a length of 1.40" or greater to use in a lever-action rifle.

For very mild and light loads, I use the Fiocchi .380 Rimmed Short cases (0.687" long) measuring a nominal 1.7 grains of Bullseye using the #00 rotor with the RCBS Little Dandy powder measure, and I seat the Accurate .36-155D bullet to the crimp groove. These give about 600 fps to exit the rifle barrel reliably, and about 500 fps in revolvers OK at short steel plate ranges.
Attachment 121873

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Many years ago William Dresser wrote an article entitled "Minimum Loads In Handguns" in which he used soft-swaged 148-grain factory wadcutter bullets in the .38 Special, flush-seated, testing in a 6" K38 and also in a 2" snubby. The flush-seated wadcutters work best for this because they reduce the amount of free airspace in the case. Once you start taking conventional bullets and seating them out to a length of greater than about 1.25", you can get variations due to changes in powder positioning.

I have worked up minimum loads which give me good accuracy to 50 yards in my rook rifle, and which reliably and safely exit the rifle barrel. The lightest charge of current production Alliant Bullseye which accomplishes this is 2 grains when loading a soft-swaged hollow-based wadcutter flush to the case mouth, applying a normal taper crimp as you would use in an autoloading match pistol, or 2.5 grains when using 155-160 grain soft cast Cowboy style bullets seated to a length of 1.40" or greater to use in a lever-action rifle.

For very mild and light loads, I use the Fiocchi .380 Rimmed Short cases (0.687" long) measuring a nominal 1.7 grains of Bullseye using the #00 rotor with the RCBS Little Dandy powder measure, and I seat the Accurate .36-155D bullet to the crimp groove. These give about 600 fps to exit the rifle barrel reliably, and about 500 fps in revolvers OK at short steel plate ranges.
Attachment 121873

Outpost75,
Yep, I thought that William Dresser article is a very good one.

I've posted the following on another thread with the same question, I'd highly recommend that the OP find this article.

There is a great article in "The NRA handloaders guide" C1969
"Minimum Loads in handguns" by William Dresser.

He worked up a load of 0.75gr of Bullseye for a 146gr. WC specifically for a Smith & Wesson Chief's Special [38 spl] with 2" barrel. MV=195 fps

The article goes into great detail on how to work-down to where the boolit sticks in the barrel and then work-up to a level where it will reliably shoot. Also mentioned was that Wad Cutters are best as they can be seated deep which then reduces powder capacity space, which would be desirable in this instance.

I couldn't find any online free copies, but you can loan it from the local library, no doubt.
Good luck,
Jon

[Shiloh]

Ever think about trying round ball loads? Quiet, low recoil, accurate, cheap!

RB

I've done .36 call round balls a time or two.
Loaded 148 gr WC with 2.3. That is as low as I dared to go. I should have clocked them. Currently at 2.7 gr. Bullseye.

Shiloh

[Centaur 1]

The cylinder gap is what causes a lot of problems with very light loads in a revolver. Once the base of the bullet clears the gap, the gases have an escape route other than pushing the bullet. The sound is more of a cat fart than a cat sneeze when this happens, but it is loud enough to make you think the bullet exited the barrel, so be careful. You need to work down a load for every revolver separately because the cylinder gap can vary quite a bit between guns, and a load that works in my gun may stick the bullet in yours.

[Outpost75]

My experience has been that the old yellow-fluffy Hercules Bullseye made prior to the Alliant change lights off more easily and is better suited to highly reduced loads than the modern black Alliant having well defined particles.