Inlines

[johnson1942]

you will all have to forgive me as my experiece of hunting deer is where their is a lot more deer now than when our ancestors came out west. also i live in a state where their is a exteem abundance of public land. hundreds of thousands of acres of land that is open to hunting. one thing i would like to inform all the followers of cast boolits is just because i live in this state it isnt just for me. it is for any one of you out their. western nebraska has lot and lots of land, private a public. with in 30 miles of me and some only a couple of miles from me their are 4, 4000 acres plots the state bought just for people to hunt and camp on. it is prime wilderness land and full of game. also for those of you who can afford it i have a aquatinance who owns 100,000 acres of land and he sell hunts at a prices that beats most every one else. he has bunk houses to stay in and cooks your meals and provides a ranch hand to go look for deer with you. come to western ne. and hunt, we would enjoy your company. also the muzzle loader season is 1 month long out here, 31 days in dec. again i wasnt aware that deer are not abundant every wheres.also if you want record mule deer in size, go to the bad lands of north dak. you wont believe thwe size of them up their.

[starmac]

Something else to think about ( I know I think weird) I think my sidelock is a more capable killing machine than my 30/30, unless I miss. So which one has the advantage.

I also think my lever actions are more traditional than modern sporting rifles, which I have no use for, but don't think we should have seperate hunts for them.

[drinks]

The "Traditional " side lock is actually the fastest and least costly way to make a flinch lock into a cap lock.
Basically, the cheapest solution, not the best, by any means.
As a practical matter, the under hammer is very good from the stand point of being reliable in bad weather and offers more protection for the eyes.
There is supposed to be an inline flint lock in a German museum.
One of the gun auction sites has a Rem. inline shotgun that was supposedly made about 1860 for sale.
In my opinion, the sidelock is just more playing cowboys and indians, sorta like the bunch that dresses up to go shoot at CA parties.
I am ducking now!

[starmac]

Now you have done went and done it. Don't be dissing my sidelock, it is probably the purtiest gun I own. Of coarse beauty is in the eye of the gun holder. lol

[newton]

I see that my statement was poorly worded, I should apologise. What I intended to communicate, but did so poorly, was to bring up the idea you had specifically agreed with: that it was not a bad idea to lump everyone together, rifle, shotgun, muzzle, and archers for one season, let it be a freeforall. And to suggest what will happen as a direct result of implementing that policy.

It was not my intention to suggest that such a policy would be doing things "your way".

So again, sorry.

I didn't take it too hard. I got pretty thick skin. But I should clarify my intent is not for a freeforall. It is a take an animal anyway you so choose for all. If the state has determined that X amount of deer need to be taken, X amount of bucks, and X amount of does, then you issue X amount of permits. The people who get said permits have until X date to use their permit, using whatever means they want. Then, if they are successful, the state can cross that number off their list. If they are not, then the state can re-issue another permit.

This is done a lot with Elk hunting in certain states. Just not so much with deer for some reason. Here in my state it was done with does for a long time. I think its too much work for them is why they do not do it. Personally, I think it would a better approach to management then the way they do it right now. Because the way they do it right now is based on the fact that even though when a person buys his license in my state they are allowed to take 6 deer, the state banks on the fact that they wont take that many. If everyone who bought a license took that many one year.....well, lets just say that things would change big time the next year.

Right now its a gambling game the state plays. They say you can take X amount of deer, but the different seasons will hopefully make it difficult for some to take all that X amount.

[newton]

you will all have to forgive me as my experiece of hunting deer is where their is a lot more deer now than when our ancestors came out west. also i live in a state where their is a exteem abundance of public land. hundreds of thousands of acres of land that is open to hunting. one thing i would like to inform all the followers of cast boolits is just because i live in this state it isnt just for me. it is for any one of you out their. western nebraska has lot and lots of land, private a public. with in 30 miles of me and some only a couple of miles from me their are 4, 4000 acres plots the state bought just for people to hunt and camp on. it is prime wilderness land and full of game. also for those of you who can afford it i have a aquatinance who owns 100,000 acres of land and he sell hunts at a prices that beats most every one else. he has bunk houses to stay in and cooks your meals and provides a ranch hand to go look for deer with you. come to western ne. and hunt, we would enjoy your company. also the muzzle loader season is 1 month long out here, 31 days in dec. again i wasnt aware that deer are not abundant every wheres.also if you want record mule deer in size, go to the bad lands of north dak. you wont believe thwe size of them up their.

I'm going to have to come out some day and hunt out there. I know it would probably cost more than its worth, based on what hunting around here would cost, but I think it would be fun none the less.

I guess this is off topic pretty bad though huh. lol

[johnson1942]

newton, my boy and i saw a record mule deer buck yesterday about a mile south of me in the grass land. his rack looked like a elks. man is it tempting to take one like that early, that why no guns in my truck untill its legal. he was following a doe around with his nose in you know where, didnt even see us. a 125 yard shot. would cost as much as you think, you can stay at my house as i have plenty of room.

[Ajax]

When the muzzle loader season was put into place it was done to allow the people using primitive TYPE guns a equal footing to taking deer. Having a sealed primer is not primitive to me. This is why o feel the way i do. If the only requirement is load from the muzzle i guess that abomination that uses smokeless and is loaded from the muzzle is fine in yall's eyes. I am not saying you shouldn't be able to use what you want to hunt. I asked to see what everyones opinion was. i stated mine already.

Andy

[starmac]

My opinion used to be the same as yours, and I still much prefer the side lock, but my opinion doesn't affect the definition of muzzle loader. As far as hunting with them, it depends on the way the state words the season, some are primitive hunting season, some are muzzleloader season.
It took a lot of years for me to even think about a stainless rifle too. I just think a rifle should be walnut and blue, but I finally started coming around. lol

[newton]

When the muzzle loader season was put into place it was done to allow the people using primitive TYPE guns a equal footing to taking deer. Having a sealed primer is not primitive to me. This is why o feel the way i do. If the only requirement is load from the muzzle i guess that abomination that uses smokeless and is loaded from the muzzle is fine in yall's eyes. I am not saying you shouldn't be able to use what you want to hunt. I asked to see what everyones opinion was. i stated mine already.

Andy

See, any muzzleloader is a primitive type. That's just it. Sealing the breech is just a sublet of the gun. And, it only comes into play when you have foul weather. They did not set up the season to revolve around foul weather, making the open breech guns the target weapon.

There were plenty of older than you TC sidelock guns that had ways of sealing the breech. They did not set up, or maybe they did(typical government lobbying), the season to be used by people shooting the TC (and the like) company reproduction guns only. They set it up for guns that had limitations. Even the fanciest inline has significant limitations over center fire rifles.

There are still some states that hold to the open breech system, and that's fair because that's what they choose. But most states have come to understand that inlines do not have a significant advantage over sidelocks. It's interesting how people so obsessed with them feel that inlines are so superior. I would think the opposite. But then again I am not a psychologist.

One Thing is for sure. You asked for opinions. And you now have them. But opinions can never negate the truth.

[freebullet]

Sealed is a relative term. If you use an in line long enough you'll find that they misfire too. I didn't hit what would have been my largest muzzleloader whitetail buck at only 40 yards because an in line misfired. If it's raining or sleet is falling my in line will wear a finger cot on the muzzle.

My reasoning for classifying in lines as traditional is simple. The above don't happen with an ar10, nor will it limit everything that can be accomplished as severely as any muzzleloader. What you are calling traditional I would call historic replicas, unless they are authentic then it's just historic. I like them too.

[Ajax]

I guess i can see some of yalls point. Maybe i am hung up in the nostalgia of the whole thing. I had a inline for 5 years before i went to the side lock for the challenge. In that 5 years i never had a misfire or hang fire or FTF. I have had one or two with cap lock since switching almost 10 years ago. Still negligible as far as flintlocks are concerned. I guess i cant get past the appearance of them, or maybe its the advertisements saying load 150 grains and shoot 300 yards that gets me. I have seen guys at the range complain that the gun wouldn't shoot 300 yards like advertised. That worries me. Well i have not said anyone's opinion is wrong, no one can. I have my convictions and expect every to do the same, Have a great morning,


Andy

[freebullet]

200 yards is not difficult with 100-150 grain equivalent charge in many inlines. 250 yards is consistently doable with a good one, a tc omega will do it. Somewhere after 250 the wind takes over and consistency begins to fall off. Iirc 2-3' wind drift for light winds.

That's where the modern super magnum front suffers take over. They can take 200 grains equivalent charge and they'll reach way out there.

[newton]

I guess i can see some of yalls point. Maybe i am hung up in the nostalgia of the whole thing. I had a inline for 5 years before i went to the side lock for the challenge. In that 5 years i never had a misfire or hang fire or FTF. I have had one or two with cap lock since switching almost 10 years ago. Still negligible as far as flintlocks are concerned. I guess i cant get past the appearance of them, or maybe its the advertisements saying load 150 grains and shoot 300 yards that gets me. I have seen guys at the range complain that the gun wouldn't shoot 300 yards like advertised. That worries me. Well i have not said anyone's opinion is wrong, no one can. I have my convictions and expect every to do the same, Have a great morning,


Andy

Its easy to get hung up. It really is. I didn't, then I did, and now I am back to the original.

One thing that is a FACT, no doubt about it, is that some inlines very much provide less of a challenge over some sidelocks/flintlocks. I think, the ultimate challenge is flintlocks. I fully plan on having one some day and I cannot wait to see what the boys at camp will say.

I think any muzzleloader is capable of 300 yards, but only if it is the right type of rifling and projectile. There are many, historical rifles, that are true long range shooters. Look up the Baker Rifle. Quite a gun!

I like the look of my inline, but I love the look of the old long rifles. They are MUCH prettier than any modern gun in my opinion.

[starmac]

I think my old cabellas hawken would reach 300 yards, but I doubt I could get the kentucky windage right. I have to wonder about the 200 grains thing, or even 150, just because the gun doesn't blow up, doesn't mean the accuracy will be there.
Some of the guys here are getting some pretty amazing yardage with accuracy with their sidelocks and without sabots.

[dondiego]

They were making 300 yard shots with flinters in the Revolutionary War. Target rich environment of course, but it is documented.

[freebullet]

I think my old cabellas hawken would reach 300 yards, but I doubt I could get the kentucky windage right. I have to wonder about the 200 grains thing, or even 150, just because the gun doesn't blow up, doesn't mean the accuracy will be there.
Some of the guys here are getting some pretty amazing yardage with accuracy with their sidelocks and without sabots.

Just like a center fire the load combo has to be right to get good accuracy. Good ones will maintain accuracy longer without cleaning as well. I could get 10-13 shots out of that omega without serious accuracy degradation, you simply couldn't load it anymore at that point. Sabot would split or an ear would come off when trying to load it. 150 grain equivalent of pyrodex, triple7, or app with most 250 gr 452 sabot bullet did well to 200 yards.

I don't have any that take 200 gr charges, but the are a number of videos on YouTube testing them out. Iirc one is called bad boy (er bull) muzzleloader, and there are a couple others with the 200 gr capability. One video showed them taking a deer/shootin targets out to 500 yards.

[starmac]

I have no doubt that shooting targets at 500 yards can be done with a muzzle loader, and see no reason one would need 150 or 200 grains of powder. I think the biggest limitation would be the sights, it should be fairly easy to duplicate 45/70 ballistics with a side lock, but there are very few people that install the sights it would take, and practice at those ranges. I don't practice at 300 yards with anything, as it is way past my personell limit on shooting at game. With iron sights I have always limited myself to 125 yards and even my old side lock does pretty well at that range.

[Col4570]

Here in the UK,inlines are regarded as not being in the spirit of Originals and are therefore not allowed in Muzzleloading competitions.I have no doubt they have their place for hunting but are only marginal in performance to a modern Rifle and exist to extend the Deer season.

[starmac]

I forget which forum it is, but I have heard of one that pretty much bans anybody that mentions an inline. lol I am glad this one at least let's us fuss about them. lol