high velocity with cast.

[btroj]

I would love to see someone get 2600 fps in a 30 cal with a traditional bore rider. I doubt I ever will but it would be a challenge.

[cbrick]

Gee Rick, sounds like a neat project for a guy with a lathe. Or maybe someone getting a lathe.

Getting checks square on my 30 Sil bullets is a pain. They are just snug enough to be a problem. A punch to open the checks a bit is what I need.

I know someone that is getting a lathe, perhaps you could talk to him about making punches?

I have a punch made for every caliber that I cast for. Made them out of center punches because they are tapered, as you make them shorter they get larger in diameter, the trick is to get them exactly the right diameter for the caliber. Then put a very slight chamfer on the end to slightly angle the side of the check.

It really is a PITA but what possible good could a perfect crown be if the bullet that exits it has a crooked check?

Rick

Here's another type I made from a Lyman "M" die for use in the Rockchucker, this one is for 35 caliber. The anvil is a RCBS comp extended shell holder that has no hole in the middle. This works well but is actually slower than the punch.

[btroj]

It is the little details like that which matter. Square bases are more important than anything else in a bullet.

I see some punches being made this winter.

[cainttype]

Regular punches can be used to flare checks after turning in a decent drill press with a mill file to bevel the tip to your desired angle. Minor beveling has no practical effect on a punch, so you can normally use it without worry as a dual-purpose tool indefinitely.
I have a pretty large selection of punches modified this way. Most were purchased by the handful from the used tool bins in local pawn shops...pennies a piece.

[Doc Highwall]

Funny that you mention annealing case necks I just received this in the mail today.

http://bench-source.com/id81.html

Here is a thread I started about modifying dies for cast bullets. Take a look at my neck expander die. I will be making the other expander diameters this winter.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ullet-Shooting

This fits right in with what you are doing. I hope to use the 311365 bullet for this test.

[Pilgrim]

I agree square bases are absolutely critical for accuracy, but.....if all the other factors (fit, neck tension, alloy, alignment, brass, etc.) aren't right, then the square base doesn't buy you squat. I think the powder ignition does a pretty good job of ensuring the GC is as flat as the boolit base, so I 've not spent much time fooling around with GC's other than to NEVER use slip-on GC. All I use now are the Hornady checks. I've sorta given up on BHN simply to keep my casting etc. simple. I think it's important, but I'm not too sure WHEN it becomes important. My .358 is giving me 2430 fps instrument velocity with a 35-200 boolit with a BHN # of 14/15 ( ACWW w/ 2% 95-5 solder). Ain't no way that load is anywhere near the 2240 x BHN pressure limit. It's gotta be approaching 50k psi. Alloy is important, but I think it is secondary to fit and BHN. So when does the boolit BHN become critical? I know a too small boolit total diameter is disaster, as is a bore rider that doesn't ride the bore. I suspect oversize boolits are just as acceptable as the "perfect fit boolit" whatever that is. Lubes are as important as anything else, but there are a bunch of good lubes that prevent leading, so lube is a factor, but again when ? I think lubes are as good as the boolit fit and gets more critical as velocity goes up but I'm not sure when to start testing lubes vs. velocity. So far LBT Blue has served me well so changing to FWFL or Bens Red isn't in the cards (yet). Powder selection is important, but I think it's a black art that we will never have a good answer for. Some combination ALWAYS work like the .270 and H4831 with 130 gr. jacketed bullets. Other combinations mostly work but some combinations should work but don't. I'm going to go back to testing my .30 and .35 Rems, .375 Win., .30-30, and most likely .223 and I will report back here as to my results and observations. FWIW Pilgrim

[MT Gianni]

either way,, they seemed good to me.
you do run into degrees of difficulty along the way.
airc it was Felix that told me it was about every 250-300 fps.
21-24-2700 seemed to each hold an accuracy node.
as you found each one you found accuracy again about that much higher and had to work harder and harder on narrowing down the details to move to the next one.

Back on the shooters hosted forum I remember Felix talking about accuracy nodes @ 400 fps intervals, 1200, 2600, 2000, & 2400 with secondary nodes at the half points, 1400, 1800, 2200 etc. I thought it was more toward barrel harmonics but could be wrong.

[geargnasher]

OK, back to the brass prep thing. Here's some more stuff I find necessary at HV, ya'll chime in.

Brass must be a reasonably snug fit in the chamber. More loose in autoloaders, but no more loose than absolutely necessary to function. This usually means the brass must be fireformed, and fireformed concentrically. If the chamber is super-sloppy near the head, a narrow strip of cellophane tape wrapped around the head will keep the full-length-resized case centered during fireforming. Leaving the case mouth belled for a scrape-fit in the chamber neck also helps center the front of the case, provided the flare is concentric with the neck and the neck is sized concentric with the body. Once this is done, subsequent sizings may be neck only, or partial sizing in a regular FL die that's backed off the shellholder until it only sizes the body enough to plunk back into the chamber easily but with minimal "wiggle". The case neck steers the bullet at launch, and experience shows that crooked starts = big groups.....at any velocity, but HV and high rpm magnify these little issues exponentially.

Next deal is case neck clearance. I don't know about the rest of you, but I haven't maintained 1MOA in any rifle much past "normal" velocities with the .006-10" total chamber neck clearance that is so typical. Look at the .308 Winchester chamber neck, it's like .343" at the front and .345" at the shoulder junction, and brass averages around .0135" after knocking off the high spot. Throat entrance varies, but is typically .310-.311". So the max size bullet is .311". Add .311", 2X .0135", subract from .343", and you get .005" as an absolute best case scenario, more like .006" if you give a little margin of error and size just under throat entrance diameter (.310" or so). All other things close to the same, I can substitute GI blank brass (thanks, Bob) which has necks around .022" thick, turn them to .016" thick, and get .001" total neck clearance and can now shoot MOA at 2400 fps instead of 1900, in a ten twist sporter. Some other things have to be just right, too, like bullet nose shape, alloy composition/temper, and powder burn rate/charge, but it can be dialed in PROVIDED the neck clearance is small. If it can be done with thin necks, I don't know how. As was mentioned earlier (and I've done this), using .270 or '06 brass to form 7mm-08 or 6.5x55 Mauser with thick-enough necks is a necessary tool for getting HV in those calibers. No way around it. If you have a .30-06, you're pretty much stuck. I've tried .35 Whelen brass sized down, it's not enough. I even talked with the Hawk guys and a custom brass outfit that makes '06 "basic" brass about forming '06 out of basic brass and the conclusion was I might gain .002" total, which in most '06 chambers isn't enough. I came up with a way to add thickness to the necks by copper-plating trued '06 necks up to just over the correct thickness and sanding them to an exact size checked with a ball mic. It worked very well, and enabled me to take my '06 to places it had never been before with sub-moa accuracy, but the process of doing only five cases exactly the same was excruciating. I will gladly pay $500 to rebarrel a rifle plus another $150 for a tight-necked reamer before I do that again. If you have a .243 Winchester (hey JonB, this is for you) you can get thick necks from .308 brass or .270 brass, quite a few options, really. Anyway, the point is that getting that total loaded neck clearance down around a thousandth is pretty much essential to HV accuracy because it limits how far off to one side the bullet base can bend, or more likely, how much it can rivet up as the nose is swaging through the throat. Ideally, I postulate that the inside of the case neck, when fully expanded to the confines of the chamber neck, is never larger than the throat entrance diameter. Felix made a comment once that softer bullets like a little more clearance, but in context he meant within reason, and that super-tight, like a few "tenths" total, might not work as well with a soft bullet as with a tougher one. I have yet to test this very well to see, but have in one instance tested .0005" total vs. .0012" total and all else equal the tighter fit shot best by a clear margin using a fairly "tough" alloy.

We talked about anneal, I find some load/gun combos like rock-hard necks, others not so much. If your neck is soft, work the case through a FL die a few times with the factory expander button in there, they will harden quickly. I find also that when dealing with production-spec neck clearances (SAAMMI minimum brass and SAAMMI maximum chambers) really hard necks help accuracy at 'normal' velocities. Consistent neck anneal, or "bullet pull", "neck tension" however you want to describe it, is at least as important as the exact amount of tension or anneal. This goes double for revolvers with straight-walled cartridges and rifles where the bullet must "jump" to the lands.

I true my necks by at least removing high spots. Doing so has always improved groups, so I continue to do it, even in .30-30 Winchester.

Things I don't do regularly, YET, because I haven't seen much difference: Deburring flash holes, weighing cases or measuring water weight, or sorting by weight. I'm on the fence with flash hole uniforming. Military '06 flash holes are rarely close to center, but I haven't seen just how much that matters for sure yet.

I do true primer pockets with a Redding reamer and found to my surprise that groups actually improved, so i do it to every LR pocket now. This really helps get the primers just below flush and I think that helps a lot when the case is well-formed to the chamber and the bolt puts some preload on it as it's cammed into battery. I started reaming pockets when I discovered that a lot of .30-30 pockets are too shallow, or are actually all over the map. I can't hold half-inch groups at 100 yards with my Marlin .30-30 without truing pockets and culling the super-deep ones.

When using range pickup brass or brass fired from a machine gun, I tend to check the case head and rim for burrs and file them off, or flat-sand across the headstamp to remove high spots. Seems to help ensure that the datum length remains constant through multiple firings.

These are a few things I've found through my own, meandering experience or been told about and tested to be true myself...things that fall into the "it matters" category when taking cast bullets to the next level of velocity, particularly in rifle barrels with standard twist rates.

Gear

[Pilgrim]

If you can get a copy of a 1994 RIFLE article "In Search of Accuracy", I compared a whole bunch of accuracy tricks with brass treatment. I found that much of what gear just typed up matches my research. There is a lot of variables that affect the net effect like case neck turning. Marquart sold me his neck turning setup and ventured an opinion that a "tight neck" chamber situation is necessary to see accuracy improvement. My tests verified his opinion that minimal neck clearance is necessary for neck turning to have a positive accuracy effect. Anyway....it was performed using j@#=/^ed bullets, but much/most of the results will be the same with bullets or boolits. FWIW Pilgrim

[geargnasher]

When you start splitting hairs, this stuff definitely matters with j@#=/^ed bullets too. I've said before that it seems like one has to go to full-on F-class BR case prep methods to get even "normal" factory j@#=/^ed ammo accuracy with cast bullets. Due to the delicacy of our beloved cast lead-alloy bullets, the nuances and variances of the cartridge brass affect the way they launch and fly so much more.

Gear

[ReloaderEd]

I have learned a few valuable things reading thru this thread. Vice grips ro test anealed case neck and pure lead as an annealing media for consistent temperature. Fired case necks wirh cast bullets that fit the chamber throat (just) seated at the correct depth and perhaps indexed from rhe mold. Now all this is something I'm going to work on this winter starting out with the most accurate loads I have for cast.
Off hand does anyone know what the maximum PC cast bullets or boolits have been pushed velocity wise?
Lighter 30 caliber boolits will be needed for sucess in the quest for 3000+ fps and a slow barrel twist. That's my opinion. Be safe

[303Guy]

Thanks for that write up, Gear.

[frnkeore]

Can we define "accuracy"?

Frank

[tomme boy]

My definition would be different from others. Because there is bench accuracy and then there is hunting accuracy. Even this is different from person to person.

My bench accuracy for cast in a rifle would be 1 IPHY(inch per hundred yards). Hunting accuracy for me would be 2 IPHY.

[RoyEllis]

..... I do actually have one load that will fall in the #5 category.

That makes me feel better, to know I'm not the only one trying to learn a way to get really high velocity cast to work. .257 Weatherby mag @ 3600fps I've found do-able with paper patched loads,but when a 100gr boolit just explodes & doesn't penetrate through a yote...I got some alloy work to do. Only way I can get consistently defect-free boolits to wrap is casting a core, swaging it in a die I had made for use in my 20 ton shop press.....monotype way too hard, lino was still too hard & would crumble/crack when swaged, AC WW's work ok but blow up @ impact. I mean it looks like you taped an IED to a yotes shoulder...huge hamburger-like depression blown out & no through penetration, not what I want for beanfield deer shootin'.
Oh well, back to the drawing board, maybe with a good discussion by others who know far more than I do, I just might learn enough to get somewhere.

[Bullshop Junior]

How about the expanders that we use. I have always thought that they were helping in one way but hurting in another. Meaning that we need to get a set amount of tension to hold the bullet. So to get that, I use an RCBS neck expander. It works well. But is there a better way to expand the neck and keep it straight at the same time?

I do not like the expanders that come with a FL die or neck die. I usually take them out and use the Neck expanders only. My groups have most certainly improved. I feel it has to be because of more consistent neck tension. I know everyone has different ways to achieve the same thing, but this is something that really seems to help make my ammo more accurate weather it is cast or jacketed.

I think if I was going to be target shooting, I would not size my cases. I would notch the rim of the case, so that it could be chambered the same every time, and then use brass with a thick even neck, where the bullet is just a snug fit. If we are single loading at a bench, we don't need to worry about bullets getting shoved back into the case during recoil or when cycling the action. And then all the cases are fit to the chamber, and are the same way every time.

[Bullshop Junior]

it's anything beyond normal cast velocity's in your rifle.

if you are approaching jacketed velocity's, your for sure high velocity with cast.

for instance I shoot 2400 fps in my 308's my 30-30's and 358 Winchester.
I shoot 2800 in my AR and in my ruger varmint 223.

we need to remember a 180 in a 308 won't get past 2700 no matter what we do.

This is kinda the way I see it. Say I look in a reloading manual for say, my 32 special and it shows a 170gn Jacketed at 2300 FPS. For me, if I am approaching within 200 FPS of that I am getting to high velocity for that gun.

My 30/06 will shoot that same weight bullet 2700 FPS. Again, if I am approaching that velocity I am getting to high velocity with cast.

On the other hand, in my 1911, 900 FPS is high velocity.

[geargnasher]

My definition would be different from others. Because there is bench accuracy and then there is hunting accuracy. Even this is different from person to person.

My bench accuracy for cast in a rifle would be 1 IPHY(inch per hundred yards). Hunting accuracy for me would be 2 IPHY.

I just stick with 1IPHY for everything, I need every advantage I can get in the hunting field. If that means I have to slow things down a bit and do a lot more shooting at various ranges to dial-in my trajectory better, so be it. I'd rather compensate for additional drop than for an extra MOA of "unknown".

ReloaderEd, several members have been gathering data on Powder Coated Cast Bullets in rifles to determine which techniques and components work best, and what are the practical limits of the method. The jury is still out, but likely PC will mostly just replace lube and possibly give a little boost to the bullet's surface strength. It's looking like fine-tuning alloy is still very important, and that PC does not mitigate all of the challenges with cast lead-alloy bullet shooting at higher velocities, though it does seem to make some aspects of HV load development easier.

Gear

[Bullshop]

Here is something to ponder and to try to apply reason to the why of it that may lead to fruitful ground.
Why is it that I can get well in excess of 4000, 4300 tops so far fps with a 22 cal boolit with acceptable accuracy shooting them from a 1/10" twist barrel if they are in a sabot but without a sabot seemingly impossible to get even close to this? I think there are going to be several points to address in answering this question like alloy strength, alloy spring back, torque, boolit length, alloy temper and likely many things beyond my ability to even consider.
It will be very interesting to truly understand why this is so

[dtknowles]

cb the best way I have found to get around it is to use a temp indicator and time.
once I hit the 700-f temp zone that's all I want, I time how long it takes to get there and use the same amount on each case.
I don't like a dead soft anneal on my cast loads.
I like the case necks to have a couple of sizings done to them after an anneal, you'll feel the difference in the seating die.
I sort my loads according to that feel usually the vast majority have a resistance to them, one or two slip right in, and a couple take some oomph to seat.
the too easy and too tight get pulled into their own group for shooting together.

I should have known I was not the only person using feel during bullet seating as a sorting criteria. The too tight or too loose ones get used a fowlers for cold barrels or after cleaning. If I get a lot of variation it is time for new brass or annealing depending on my mood.

Tim