high velocity with cast.

[runfiverun]

red the cooling doesn't matter it's the heat.
the time of the heat isn't overly important it's how much.
you have to get to between 700-715 for the molecules to re-align in brass and for the annealing to be done.
I use time to get the temps to the same point.
if a case takes more or less time it is different than the rest of the batch and doesn't belong.

[runfiverun]

not sure, but it's like varying your neck tension.
I try to keep the anneal consistent in the batch.

ever split a case neck? where did that shot go. [probably low]
imagine half of your necks splitting same effect.

[btroj]

I use my fingers and time as a guage. I twirl the case neck in the flame and count for a set numbers. I determine the number by how long a case takes to get warm enough I don't want to hold on and go from there. Case necks never glow even a bit red and color change barely gets past shoulder. I want to remove stress from the neck but not soften it dead soft.

[brotherdarrell]

A topic I constantly trying to get smarter at. It seems to me it almost requires it own sub-forum.

My own high velocity interests pretty much revolve around the 22 calibers. I never fails to amaze me what matters and what doesn't. Why does a boolit with a good static fit shoot like garbage yet another that appears to be totally un-suited shoot so well? Why do I get great accuracy at velocity with the 4895's yet moving to 4064 accuracy is dismal at any velocity?

There are certain things that I know work yet I don't know why. Some of the recent threads regarding the 30 xcb have started to shed some light on some of the things I have been running into and I hope they can continue.

Darrell

[geargnasher]

I too sort loaded ammo into batches by 'feel' of the press handle if I'm going to shoot for groups. It's one of those things that makes a huge difference in point-of-impact. Mix them up and the aggregate group is huge.

Seeing a trend here among "things that matter at HV": Straight necks, consistent neck tension on the bullet, and Detox brought up another really good one, loaded neck clearance. How about fitting the brass to the chamber straight the first time and not messing that up with a FL sizing? Sort of a given to many, but maybe not to all? Short version, use fireformed brass and when you do "bump" the shoulder back, .002" is plenty.

Here's a question: How much neck clearance can you get away with and still shoot MOA or better at "HV"?

Gear

[btroj]

I bet neck clearance isn't as big an issue as it would seem. Look at what some do with factory rifles.
I just had an epiphany of sorts. Saw .006 runout on a few loaded rounds. My sizing bushing was full of gunk from case forming and the bushing was also held too snug in the die. I like to let them float a bit, gives less runout. Case has .002 to .003 after sizing now. It stays the same after using an M-die. Yes Gear, an M-die. It isn't expanding anything, just putting a very slight bell on the case mouth to prevent any bullet shaving. I'm using a .333 bushing with .0125 necks. I would use my .335 bushing but it doesn't give any tension on my .3095 bullets. The .333 gives roughly .0015 tension. Not much but it holds bullets in place, can't spin them with my fingers like I can if I use a .335 bushing.

[geargnasher]

I use my fingers and time as a guage. I twirl the case neck in the flame and count for a set numbers. I determine the number by how long a case takes to get warm enough I don't want to hold on and go from there. Case necks never glow even a bit red and color change barely gets past shoulder. I want to remove stress from the neck but not soften it dead soft.

I soot the necks and "draw" them in a 700F pot of lead for a count, then into a small bucket of water to stop the movement of heat. You can go to an almost full anneal if you hold them too long, or dip for a one-two count to just barely draw out a little brittleness. CBRick has mentioned using Vice Grip pliers and a micrometer to check relative anneal, set the "lock" to a few thousandths below the neck diameter and squeeze the neck until the pliers lock, then release and check if the neck sprung back to round or if it deformed. Crude but with a little common sense applied, it is a very effective gauge.

Gear

[btroj]

Clean case necks merely means no powder gas leaked down the sides of the neck, nothing more. No different than when I load to higher pressures. Low pressure gives dirty case necks, higher pressure gives clean case necks. This has no bearing on accuracy potential of either load.

Gear, I did the lead method once. Once. Got lead stuck to cases and swore it off for good.

[geargnasher]

Hence the soot. Also, I said "lead", not alloy containing tin, I should have been more specific because we use the term "lead" quite generically to mean pretty much any bullet alloy. Tin "tins" brass like crazy. Been there, done that.

Gear

[Bullshop]

On annealing cases I am afraid of over doing the heads so I decap and submerge the heads in water. With just a little more than the area to be annealed out of the water I use a propane torch and judge the heat by the color it takes on. When they get the right glow I bump them over into the water to stop any further migration of heat.

On high velocity 22s I have found it critical to get the gas check to be a perfect square fit. For those I have made a small punch with a rounded end to put a slight flare on the gas checks before seating. That in conjunction with a gas check seater seems to produce about as square a base as I can get without deforming the boolit base installing the gas check.
These two things seem to have greatly reduced the number of unexplained flyers I get when pushing 22 cal boolits up near the limit in pressure that the alloy hardness will tolerate.

[451whitworth]

I've had success at 2550 fps in two rifles/cartridges. The 218 Bee and 250-3000. By that I mean accuracy and no leading. Both used oven heat treat WW alloy & RCBS neck expander die with custom made expander plugs of bullet diameter. Maybe the slow 1-14" and 1-16" twists are the reason for success in those two but I haven't done it with any 30 cal rifle yet. An interesting note to the 250-3000 is I couldn't get decent accuracy or case life with R-P or WW brass. I started forming LC .308/7.62x51 to 250 Savage with a RCBS forming die set that I got for a song and outside neck turning the brass. Results literally turned 180* with that move.

[cbrick]

Gear, the idea of using vise grips to check neck annealing belongs to Ken Light and yes, sounds kind of crude but it does work. Here is a really good article on annealing where what, why, how, when to anneal is discussed. Lot's good tips and cautions.

http://lasc.us/CartridgeCaseAnnealing.htm By Ken Light.

I'd still like to know if anyone has done a side by side accuracy test of annealed brass against virgin brass and fired brass not annealed. The results would certainly indicate a level of success of the annealing.

Rick

[detox]

When annealing fired cases in hot lead, do not remove the fired primer. Trapped air prevents lead from entering inside neck.

[Bigslug]

This one's gonna have to wait until after deer season for me, but the project I've got is a 218 grain bore rider for a .30-06 that hasn't found it's "zone" yet. Necks have been turned and alloys have been tried, but so far it's not wanting to be more than a 1600-1700fps bullet. Quenching/heat treating is next on the list.

[cbrick]

Ah yes, the single most boring thing I do in my loading room is size gas checks but I do it anyway simply because it gives the best possible flat against the bullet base that's possible. I take the concave out of the check completely and add a flair to the sides of the check. Checks slip on easily and are held tight against the bullet base by the punch as it's crimped on.

Big PITA but worth it for accuracy, NO slightly crooked checks because they went on to tight. Bullet exit at the muzzle is even all around the bullet.

Rick

[detox]

Gear, the idea of using vise grips to check neck annealing belongs to Ken Light and yes, sounds kind of crude but it does work. Here is a really good article on annealing where what, why, how, when to anneal is discussed. Lot's good tips and cautions.

http://lasc.us/CartridgeCaseAnnealing.htm By Ken Light.

I'd still like to know if anyone has done a side by side accuracy test of annealed brass against virgin brass and fired brass not annealed. The results would certainly indicate a level of success of the annealing.

Rick

According to a guy in another forum, "too much neck tension can size bullet down smaller". He turned all his necks very thin .010. He also had a smaller match chamber (30BR) so he had to turn his necks for snug chamber fit.

[detox]

This one's gonna have to wait until after deer season for me, but the project I've got is a 218 grain bore rider for a .30-06 that hasn't found it's "zone" yet. Necks have been turned and alloys have been tried, but so far it's not wanting to be more than a 1600-1700fps bullet. Quenching/heat treating is next on the list.

Linotype is harder and makes a purdy well filled out bullet. I have allways got better accuracy using linotype "IF" bullet was fitted to free bore diameter correctly(.0001-.0005 smaller) and jammed into rifling.

[detox]

For high velocity the lead bullet must have a long bearing surface just like the taper nose design of the NOE 30XCB 165gr. Bore rider designs have less lead for rifling to grab hold...I think. Bullet must fit free bore and throat correctly for best accuracy.

Support your local cast bullet.

[btroj]

Ah yes, the single most boring thing I do in my loading room is size gas checks but I do it anyway simply because it gives the best possible flat against the bullet base that's possible. I take the concave out of the check completely and add a flair to the sides of the check. Checks slip on easily and are held tight against the bullet base by the punch as it's crimped on.

Big PITA but worth it for accuracy, NO slightly crooked checks because they went on to tight. Bullet exit at the muzzle is even all around the bullet.

Rick

Gee Rick, sounds like a neat project for a guy with a lathe. Or maybe someone getting a lathe.

Getting checks square on my 30 Sil bullets is a pain. They are just snug enough to be a problem. A punch to open the checks a bit is what I need.

[cbrick]

This one's gonna have to wait until after deer season for me, but the project I've got is a 218 grain bore rider for a .30-06 that hasn't found it's "zone" yet. Necks have been turned and alloys have been tried, but so far it's not wanting to be more than a 1600-1700fps bullet. Quenching/heat treating is next on the list.

Been my experience that accuracy will go down as velocity goes up with bore riders. I believe in the concept of bore riders but the catch is that it has to ride the rifling perfectly and few really do. Too many variations of actual rifling height, but if you can get one that fits perfectly it probably could be bumped up some.

Rick