Gear's 190x

[cbrick]

I expected HT to 440 to give a higher end BHn than HT to 375. With my plain old range scrap I found that the end BHn at both temps was the same. This was evident from Day 1 on, essentially no discernible difference.

Brad, re-read post #52, this is explained to you.

What I want to see is how does an increase in tin alter the end BHn at a variety of HT temps. Will it makes a difference at all?

No! It won't! Not at the Sn percentages your using. After 5% Sn it will some and the higher past that the more Sn will effect your outcome.

If HT temp doesn't alter end BHn then why does water dropping give a range of harnesses in one session rather than all bullets being the same.

The temp you HT at WILL change the final BHN but only if you re-read post #52. If after you re-read post #52 you have questions ask, I'll try to explain it again.

Rick

[btroj]

Ok, that is easy to test. I can take those same bullets and retest the HT temps with a full hour soak time. I did preheat the oven as starting with a cold oven would be simply silly.
Great thing is that the bullets can be heat treated over and over and they just don't seem to care.

Will try to do this Friday and compile some initial info by Monday or so. Full data will need a month or so but I got lots of time, I'm still young. Ish.

[cbrick]

True enough, you can HT them, anneal them, HT them again . . . They don't care.

Bottom line is that the bullet temp they are quenched at will determine the aged BHN. The other bottom line is they HAVE to be at that temp long enough for it to work and I would bet that your lack of proper results was do to your half hour in the oven.

Please tell me that you haven't lubed those bullets already? You would end up in divorce court.

Rick

[geargnasher]

Brad, regarding post #80 (edit to add that was the last post I read before sticking this one up)....I don't think that beyond a certain temperature low-tin alloy such 97/2/1 or even lower tin will harden anymore, regardless of temp. If I water quench from a hot mould very briskly, multiple batches of 50/50 coww/soft scrap +1% Sn and 3/2 SOWW/COWW with no added tin ALL settle in right at 19/20 bhn for me, that's well over a dozen casting sessions this year and end of last year. I did manage 24 BHN with a batch of 50/50 that used SOWW instead of my usual roof lead scrap for the soft constituent, so it must have had more antimony than normal.

Basically, if I maintain a certain minimum temp of the bullets when hitting the water (who knows what it is), any hotter won't make any difference, so as long as I don't dilly-dally when shucking from the mould, they all come out the same with these two alloy mixes.

Gear

[btroj]

Rick, I haven't lined any of these! I tend to lube as I go with these as alloys, lubes, and what not change enough. Nothing worse than wanting to try something and ypur bullets are all dressed up!

Gear, that is precisely what I want to determine for sure. With my range scrap is there a temp above which any heat treating no longer makes a difference.

Will try try to get some bullets baking soon. Got some stuff for my next project in today. That project isn't for open discussion, least not yet. Gear knows what it is.

[cbrick]

I don't think that beyond a certain temperature low-tin alloy such 97/2/1 or even lower tin will harden anymore, regardless of temp. Gear

Confusing?? Am I reading that correctly in that your attributing the gain in hardness from HT to the Sn?

Rick

[btroj]

I think he is saying that low tin alloys behave differently to heat treating that higher tin alloys. Sorta what I am looking at.
Do alloys of just lead and Sb heat treat differently that those with Sb and Sn? Has anyone ever looked into the relationships between Sb/Sn ratio and how heat treating works based on heat soak temp? If not, I suppose I best get busy.

[waco]

Good grief....Do any of you guys have jobs?

[waco]

All kidding aside, interesting read.

[btroj]

Good grief....Do any of you guys have jobs?

Yep, work 45 hours or more per week. Spend lots of time with the wife too.

Doing this kind of analysis isn't something some of us decide to do, it is something we HAVE to do. It comes with a certain mindset that says we just gotta know.

Gear ae mentioned obsessions, he was right. It becomes an obsession. Sometimes the journey is more important than the destination.

[cbrick]

Good grief....Do any of you guys have jobs?

Na, no job. Used to have one of those but decided I would be much happier if I didn't have one of those.

Yep, work 45 hours or more per week. Spend lots of time with the wife too.

See? Part time job, when I did have one of those job things in a 5 day work week I had 45 hours in by lunch on Wednesday.

Rick

[btroj]

And look where it got you! I spent lots of quality time answer inane questions on the phone and giving flu and pneumonia shots. All that along with keeping my staff busy doing what needed doing.

I like to come home and have some quiet time. This is my relaxation. Yep, I am that screwed up.

[waco]

56 hour weeks for almost two years here. big demand for agricultural equipment. I love casting and reloading very much too. Some of you guys are just worlds ahead of me.

[btroj]

Not really. Some of us just get hung up on minutuae.

Waco, some days I just grad a handgun or two, a few hundred rounds of whatever ammo I have on hand, and a bowling pin. Nothing like some volume shooting with no real purpose but to relax.

In reality some of this stuff is pretty boring and tiring. It can remove the fun from shooting. That is why I tend to break it into little periods of activity followed by times where I just shoot for fun. I really enjoy plinking.

[waco]

Not really. Some of us just get hung up on minutuae.

Waco, some days I just grad a handgun or two, a few hundred rounds of whatever ammo I have on hand, and a bowling pin. Nothing like some volume shooting with no real purpose but to relax.

In reality some of this stuff is pretty boring and tiring. It can remove the fun from shooting. That is why I tend to break it into little periods of activity followed by times where I just shoot for fun. I really enjoy plinking.

I hear ya. I enjoy the tech. side of our hobby to an extent. lol. Sometimes it just gets over my head. I still have lots to learn. But I enjoy the learning process. I'm worlds ahead of where I was five years ago after finding this site. I owe my thanks to many of the members here, including you Brad. Thanks.
Waco

[btroj]

I was lucky enough to have a couple decades of head start. Then again, I had lots to unlearn.

Decide what your needs are then figure a way to meet them. Don't over complicate things.
I can assure you that Gear and I have very different was of shoving problems. He tends to analyze then go forward, I'm more prone to a shotgun approach and try lots of stuff. Both ways work and it helps us both when we communicate. He has lots of details on a few things, I have little details on lots of things. Different approaches both sharing info, we both learn from it and it directs which way we both go. Key is that we are independant yet working together.

[waco]

Well I know it helps a lot of us as well. Keep up the good work.

[TXGunNut]

I wonder what it would take to get a university lab to do all the tedious bhn/ht/alloy testing so you guys could get a bit more trigger time. Writing the grant request would likely win a Pullitzer prize for fiction in today's political climate but that doesn't mean it's impossible. Just think; all that free labor, top quality equipment and access to some serious data analysis. Paid for by Uncle Sugar.
Yep, silly idea. Carry on. This is really quite interesting.

[btroj]

I'm working on getting a few samples tested in a university lab for hardness. Not to do the leg work but to see how close they compare to my Cabin Tree. Now I just need my dang kid to decide she has time to use that lab in the engineering building. She is there all day anyway......

[popper]

Yes, a low % tin gives a harder boolit when heat treated. My alloy has no tin, 6/2 ISO should be same Sb with tin added + Cu.