Shot the .44 Spec. Flat Top today, have questions:

[Blackwater]

I'm trying to find a nice, mild, low recoil load to train my eldest (15 yr. old) grandson with. Initial load was 5.0 gr. 700X under Lee 200-RNFP's lubed with Felix lube in RP cases. Used a fair to middlin' crimp, but that Lee bullet doesn't have near the crimp groove a Keith type bullet does, so crimping is limited, but with fast burning 700X, that's never been a problem. Results were disappointing. Diabetes, and not eating any lunch had my hand a bit shaky, and irregular groups were the inevitable result. Note to self: "Lunch, dang it!" I probably ran a 10" group at 20 yds. - certainly no great shakes, and shots I called good were probably in a 6" group overall - NOT what I want. I can't very well train that grandson if I'm not sure misses aren't his fault. So ..... got a coupla'a questions:

First, has anyone loaded 700X in the .44 Spec for light loads before, and if so, what were the results? I'm looking for groups not over 1.5" at 20 to 25 yds. My aging eyes get a better sight picture (slightly) at 20 rather than the std. 25, so that's where I put the target.

Secondly: That Felix lube is some slick stuff! There was absolutely NO trace of leading - not even the slightest bit, and these bullets were cast pretty soft - @ 50/50 WW/soft lead. Didn't get to chrono them (forgot the chrono - yet ANOTHER "benefit" of age and wear - but will do that tomorrow. I'd guess vel. is @ 800-850 max, which is where I intended it to be, so that much at least appears to have worked out pretty close. I couldn't help, though, but wonder if Felix might not possibly be TOO slick, or too something to work well in these light loads. Can anyone comment on that?

Will be loading more of the same bullet with 50/50 alox/beeswax ASAP, just to see what happens. That's always worked with mild loads, but I'm open to suggestions here, and certainly open to experiencial anecdotes as well. Will also go up to 5.5 gr. 700X, and will try 5.0 & 5.5 Red Dot, just to see what happens there. Don't have any Bullseye and can't find any, so can't try that.

Now for the bright part of the day. I went to a buddy's house who is the best shot I know in this area, an old woodsman from WAY back who has more actual experience afield shooting or hunting than any 12 other people I know. He's the most accurate shot I know, and people call him "Lying Jimmie" because they think if they can't do what he's done, nobody can. Elmer Keith suffered from the same bad rap. I've shot with him for nearly 50 years because I wanted to be a better shooter, and shooting with him surely helped. My eyes were never as good as his, which are phenominal, even though he's not much younger than I am. Jimmie had 6 Keith type loads with the 240 gr. Oregon Trail SWC's over 7.5 gr. Unique with a good crimp, and we shot them. I shot the first two. First was virtually dead center bull. My hands were shaky, and I pulled and called the 2nd one low. Frustrated, and wanting to see what the gun could do, and not what I could do with it, I made Jimmie shoot the last 4. Didn't have to twist his arm too hard to get him to do that. His first shot was center bull, less than 1/2" from mine (2" bull @ 20 yds.). His 2nd shot was wide left, pulled and called the instant the bullet left the barrel. His hand slipped on our improvised rest. 3rd and 4th shots nearly centered his first, dead center bull, and couldn't have been much larger than 1/8" CTC. You could barely see the 3 curves as the bullets went almost into the same hole! Now THAT was the kind of results we all hope for, and rarely get. It could have been luck, of course, except he can do it with his std. load for his .45 LC Ruger, and some other guns he has, and has had, too many times to doubt the validity of the group. Not all are THAT small, but he regularly shoots 1" and less at 25, so ..... I guess you could say I'm quite excited about my new gun, and will be casting some 250 Lyman/Keiths ASAP.

So, now all I have to do is find a nice, mild, low recoail load. I also want to try the Lyman 429215 in HP and solid versions, but need to find that light load first, because it looks like I've already found a heavy load for my use on anything that requires it. Also want to use that mild load afield where it'll be less damaging to my already ringing ears. Can't/won't/don't always remember my muffs afield. (A 3rd "benefit" of getting older!)

Anyone got any suggestions for a good mild load in .44 Spec with 200 grainers? I plan to try 7.0 gr. Unique with it, but that's likely to give a little more oomph than I'd prefer for training the grandson - something like the upper 800's in my buddy's experience. Thanks ahead of time for any help.

[telebasher]

Try the Lee 200 gr Flat Point with 5 gr BE or 6 gr Unique.

[Deep Six]

I've had good luck with the lee 200 over 5.3 gr 700X. Shot into about 3" at 25 with my 4.625" flattop. Only more accurate load I've found is 15 gr 2400 under a 250 Keith, but that is probably a little much for your purposes.

[Horace]

I`ve always liked 4.5 grains of red dot with the 250 Keith.

Horace

[shoot-n-lead]

Never tried the light bullets in mine...shoots the heavier one's so well.

I would try the heavier bullets with a really light load of Unique...6 grs...low recoil and a bullet it prefers. Been shooting some at about 6.5grs of Unique under an approx 252gr 429421 in my 44 special Sheriff and it loves them and they are easy on the shooter, too. My standard load for the Flattops is 9.5grs of HS-6 with the 429421 and it is not bad at all...but is probably a little more than he would enjoy for starters.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have the same revolver and also a Charter Arms Bulldog with the 2.5 " bbl. That is a very light gun and it is no fun shooting it with a 240 gr lead boolit over 7 gr of unique. In fact it is quite painful. That being said I loaded it down to as low as 5 gr of Unique and I kinda am partial to 5.5 Gr of Unique and it is a nice loading for the little gun. I also load some with 6 gr of Unique for the Ruger and that is a pleasant and pretty accurate loading with the 240 gr SWC boolit.

[HeavyMetal]

try Lyman 429348 over 4.5 grains Bullseye Fed std pistol primer WW case

[leadman]

I have used 700X for many loads in rifles and handguns. Recently though I, along with several friends have had problems with 700X . Accuracy is not what it should be and for some reason when shooting a Hi-Tek coated boolit they tend to lead. When used with a wax based lube they leading is not an issue but accuracy is not as fine as it should be.
I sold all the 700X I had to a shotgun shooter and will use AA#2, Unique, or Blue Dot in the handguns for less than full loads.

[44man]

I would stay with Felix, I made hundreds of tests and always found it gave best accuracy. It should not be slippery if made right, it should be sticky.
I agree with all that a powder change it best to try. Unique, 231, etc.

[Blackwater]

44man, I know you to be as picky about your loads and components as I am. Have you noted any difference in the performance of primers in your loading of light loads? If so, what would you try (if I can find any) with the faster, easier to ignite powders like 700X? I've always found that a milder primer like the CCI 300 worked in .45 ACP, and assume it'd be similar in the Special. Have you done much mild loading for your guns? I frankly haven't, except for .38 Spec. and .45 ACP (with reduced power spring), so I'm in a virtually area for me.

[W.R.Buchanan]

5.5 to 6.0 W231 with 429421 or similar boolit.

The problem I see from your first post is you are having problems shooting the gun. Your original load will be much more accurate than 6" at 25 yards. In fact pretty much any load short of using .357 boolits in a .44 will be more accurate than 6" at 25 yards.

I think you're fine with what you've got. It's not the gun or the load. Guess what's left?

Randy

[44man]

44man, I know you to be as picky about your loads and components as I am. Have you noted any difference in the performance of primers in your loading of light loads? If so, what would you try (if I can find any) with the faster, easier to ignite powders like 700X? I've always found that a milder primer like the CCI 300 worked in .45 ACP, and assume it'd be similar in the Special. Have you done much mild loading for your guns? I frankly haven't, except for .38 Spec. and .45 ACP (with reduced power spring), so I'm in a virtually area for me.

Oh yes, primers are always tested. The .44 mag never needs a mag primer with any powder. We found a SP is better in the ACP. (SP brass) Use a standard in the special. The .357 does not matter between a standard and mag SP. I find little difference with SP primers.
Working the .45 Colt showed a fed 150 was good with 296 and the WW primer worked but never a full mag. The Colt is my break point, anything larger needs a mag.
The special never needs a mag primer.

[Char-Gar]

Don't let the term "bullet lubricant" throw you as that is not really it's purpose. It preforms two primary functions.

1. It seals the base of the bullet to keep the fire where it belong.

2. It form a barrier between the bullet and the barrel steel.

Good lubes do 1 and 2 above. Slippery and slick are adjectives that do not apply.

[R.M.]

You could try some Trailboss, if you can find it.

[tomme boy]

5.5-6 gr of unique is what we use under the 214 gr LEE with RandyRats Tac1 lube. Shoots minute of pop can out to about 40 yards.

[EDK]

I use 5.0 of TITEGROUP or HP38/231 with Lyman 429352 (Blammer's Old West group buy; my favorite for revolvers) or KEITH (MIHEC or MMA10MM) or round nose flat points. They all shoot better than my Original Size Vaqueros or I do. Some guns need another .5 grain to prevent sooty cases.
7.0 of UNIQUE...or HP38, etc...is over most of the published (anemic?) 44 Special data. Winchester Large Pistol primers.

[Blackwater]

Well, got the chrono out (forgot it yesterday) and got some strange results: AV was 707, much less than I'd anticipated. Hi was 792, Lo 379 (that's not a typo!), ES 413, SD 109 and AD 62. For those who are curios, vel's ran: 742, 704, 727, 379, 705, 697, 677740, 766, 776,792 and 777. Excepting the 379 reading, EV spread was still @ 120 fps, which in a SA tends to matter with respect to POI. I have faith in the Felix lube, even though this is my first foray with it, so will next try 5.5 gr. and see if that stabilizes the load better. Hodgdon's lists 700X as low as 4.1 gr @ 831 fps, but they used an 8" test barrel. Speer used a Cimmaron 5.5" SA and show no load lighter than 5.4 gr. 700X with their 200 grainer. Looks like my gun is more like what Speer used in testing. They also cautioned in their text on the .44 not to load below their stated min. loads, which they said produced in the vicinity of 11,000 psi, or large variations could occur. Looks like they were right. This is the problem with loading today. We've got so much load data, and it varies so widely, that we shooters can't be certain what data to go with, so mostly, we start low and work up - the rational ones among us, anyway. Lots of variables here - lube, powder, charge wt. - so I may be busy for a while, but will report back what I find. Actually, this is part of what makes loading so interesting. My buddy shot the Keith load of 7.5 Unique with whatever 240-250 gr. SWC's he ran into with such good results that he's never sought any further loads, BUT .... he's not trying to teach a young shooter, either. I learned long ago that each gun is a law unto itself, and each one has to be "learned" by actual shooting. The load books are great, and I have a shelf full of them, accumulated over the last 40+ years, but we've STILL got to SHOOT the darn things and experiment when we don't get good initial results if we want to be able to produce those bragging groups on demand.

Oh yes! I DO understand about the lube thing. I used the word "slick" inappropriately to describe how clean the barrel was. It also smoked MUCH less than 50/50 does. I'm pretty impressed with it. I like it, and am staying with it unless and until it proves that I need a change. Thanks all the same, though. Keep me honest whenever I err!

[45 2.1]

Don't have any Bullseye and can't find any, so can't try that.
Anyone got any suggestions for a good mild load in .44 Spec with 200 grainers?

Most of the older 44 Specials were regulated for 245 gr. slugs with fixed sights. The 200 to 220 gr. boolits shoot well at higher velocities for the cartridge. There is one shinning load for the 44 Special...... one which you don't have the powder or boolit for...... and that is: the Lyman 429383 sized 0.431" out of WW or softer alloy with 4.0 gr. of Bullseye. The loads capability are far beyond almost anyone's skill level to use. I used to take it to South Dakota to shoot prairie dogs with when rifles got boring.

[tomme boy]

Have you ever measured the cylinder gap?

[Blackwater]

Cylinder gap is pretty tight, about what I'd want it to be.

.45-2.1, THAT is the kind'a info I was hoping for, but you're right, I don't have any Bullseye, despite having been looking for some for a while now. It's plumb embarassing not to have Bulseye, but I won't compound the error by lying about it. Ol' Murphy works in all kinds of fields, doesn't he? Thanks for the info. Will have to give that a try if and when I find some BE to use. I don't know how it'd do better than that 7.5 Unique, but trying stuff is what leads us to better loads, and becoming better shots. Have been trying to do that for 50 years now. Had an elder uncle that was a phenomenal shotgun shot. Last time I shot with him, he was 81, and didn't miss a dove the whole day long. Guys like that have always been my heroes, and I USED to be able to at least never be embarrassed with a rifle or pistol, but never was that good with a shotgun. I was just having fun with the scattergun, and never focused or took it really serioously, like I did the rifle and pistol. Now, I'm wanting to get into sporting clays, too, to see if I can rectify that. A man just can't get any better than he's aiming for, and without a real, serious goal with the scattergun, I never developed much talent. With the rifle and pistol, there was always that thought in the back of my mind that it MIGHT be the determinant one day in whether I lived to come home, or went to the morgue. That's a powerful motivator, when you realize you're really mortal. I also learned long ago that one good shot is all ever really get, unless you're very, very lucky, whether afield or wherever, so I consciously tried to learn to be the very best shot I could be, and as quick, too. Many hours and rounds down on the lower 40 helped a great deal, especially with the speed part. That's why I'm so "picky" I guess you'd call it, about my loads and their accuracy. Can't learn much if you're not sure a miss is YOUR fault, and not the load's. That's why I'm searching for a really accurate mild load for my grandson. Can't teach him much without knowing what he did with each shot. I've trained him to think that way with a rifle, and he's responded very well. Good kid. I'm really proud of him. He applies himself, and is fairly serious minded for a kid of 15, which is really good, especially today.

If the Lee bullet just won't shoot, or I can't find a really accurate load, will have to go to the Thompson 429215, but I hate to have to use a GC if I can avoid it, and always have the Keith bullets too. Mildly loaded, maybe they'll be the ones that do what I want, but I'm trying to find "The Load" in an orderly and logical way. Those "magic loads" don't always come easily or quickly, and in what experience I've had at the lower end of the pressure scale, they're harder to find there than with full power loads. All powders burn better and more consistently with a little pressure. Nobody said this was easy, but .... it sure is FUN!