RepackboxReloading EverythingLoad DataTitan Reloading
WidenersPBcastcoMidSouth Shooters SupplyInline Fabrication
Lee Precision
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 39

Thread: AR 15 450 Bushmaster (don't know where to put this)

  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    NW Wyoming and Key West FL
    Posts
    454

    Question AR 15 450 Bushmaster (don't know where to put this)

    I can't find a search function here other than google so I'm taking a shot in the dark and posting this here as it is based on a military rifle.

    After a long search found a 450 Bushmaster upper that will probably got on my R15 lower as they were made by BM.

    Bullets are .452 and I see no reason to "plink" with expensive jacked ones. Due to velocity, I'm quite sure a gas checked bullet, autofeed friendly and in the 200-250 gr range. I've poked around the mold makers websites and struck out.

    If I could find the plain old 230 gr 45 ACP roundnose (that I use in all my 1911s) only with a gas check that would probably work fine for busting steel.

    Any suggestions, most welcome. Thanks !

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy

    IraqVet1982's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    136
    I have a 450 and plan on sizing down 458 down to 452-458. The 450bm forum has some data, I'd check there but you'll need a CG or PC bullet. You'll also need to check for tumbling, the 450 takes a little to stabilize. Good luck and let us know what happens.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    TN
    Posts
    1,895
    Are you looking for bullets or a mold?

    If you're looking for a mold, Accurate Molds lists one in their catalog for the .450.

  4. #4

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master Artful's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Valley of the SUNs, AZ
    Posts
    9,254
    I don't own one but looking at Lyman designs
    Lyman Bullet Mold #452651
    45 Caliber (.452 Diameter) 325 Grain Flat Nose Gas Check




    or

    Lyman #451114 (.451 Diameter) 450 Grain Volunteer

    je suis charlie

    It is better to live one day as a LION than a dozen days as a Sheep.

    Thomas Jefferson Quotations:
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master Artful's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Valley of the SUNs, AZ
    Posts
    9,254
    OK, some more time in on this interesting cartridge



    http://www.450bm.com/

    has load data using lil gun powder and 400 grain bullet

    http://450bushmaster.net/

    http://www.loaddata.com/members/sear...loading%20Data

    Subsonic discussion
    http://www.450bushmaster.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11083


    found this starting in 2008
    Quote Originally Posted by Boomer Mikey View Post
    I got my first black rifle this month, a 16" 450 Bushmaster. I've been running the numbers in Quickload for several reloading options. I'm really surprised at how versatile this cartridge is.

    230 grain FMJ ball at 2500 fps
    250 grain factory loads at 2100 fps
    320 grain RCBS 45-300-FN GC's at 1900 fps
    415 grain RCBS 45-405-FN GC's at 1550 fps

    I've been lubing and sizing 45-70 bullets to 0.457" and re-sizing them to 0.452" with no problems. Little Gun, H110, 4227, and 296 are the most suitable powders for full power loads.

    I haven't had the time or energy to shoot up enough of the factory loads to get enough brass to work with yet and I'm surprised at how little felt recoil there is with a 250 grain bullet at 2100 fps. I shot a few 320's and 415's at full power and they were about the same as a Marlin 1895 45-70's loads in felt recoil at equal velocities but more of a push than a jab at my shoulder as the action absorbs some of the energy.

    The FMJ full power loads will go through a telephone pole!

    The .450 Bushmaster (parent cartridge is the 45 Professional) rifle/cartridge conversion, was developed by Tim LeGendre of LeMAG FIREARMS LLC., and licensed to Bushmaster Firearms International LLC., for production and distribution. LeGendre still retains ownership. The 450 Bushmaster is designed to be used in the standard M-16/AR-15 platform, using standard magazines.
    Bushmaster asked Hornady to produce the 45 Professional ammunition for this project, Hornady agreed. Hornady wanted the 45 Professional shortened, to accommodate their Venerable 250gr., Pointed, SST bullet. Hornady asked Bushmaster for the change (1.771" to the now standard 1.700"), Bushmaster asked LeGendre to sign off on that change, and he did. Bushmaster eventually wanted a name change and LeGendre agreed, to what has now become the popular 450 BUSHMASTER.

    Parent case is the 284 Winchester; Hornady's brass uses a small rifle primer for improved ignition characteristics. Groove diameter for the 450 Bushmaster is 0.450" and it shoots cast bullets well. Hornady ammo is loaded to 37-38K psi which is very conservative in comparison to the 45 Professionals working pressure of 60K psi. This cartridge headspaces on the case mouth like a 45 ACP does.

    I'm using the RCBS 45-300-FN gas check bullet sized nose first with a gas check to 0.458" then lubed in the same die the normal way (lubrisizer) and resized nose first to 0.452". I'm shooting these 320 grain bullets at 2100 fps to develop over 3000 foot pounds of energy out of my 16" 450 Bushmaster Carbine. This load feels like shooting a 20 gage shotgun or a 12 gage with trap loads... surprisingly mild for that kind of energy.

    IMO my 450 Bushmaster is one of the most versatile rifles I own with the ability to load it anywhere from mild to wild, and can easily handle any game in North America out to 200 yards. The 250 grain SST factory load routinely shoots 1" 100 yard groups from Bushmaster rifles. Hornady is making brass available now and introduced a new 300 grain SST bullet. By re-sizing 0.458" bullets to 0.452" including jacketed bullets the 450b can easily use bullets anywhere from 45 ACP 180 grain bullets to 405 grain 45-70 bullets... 230 grain FMJ's @ 2750 fps will go thru anything.

    LeGendre's comments:

    "Ok, let me be so bold as to think I might be able to offer some help and clear up some well meaning misconceptions concerning the 450 Bushmaster. First off, I have a strong background and experience with this cartridge. Fact-Hornady, does make some of their cartridges with their super powders. The 450 Bushmaster is not one of them. Fact-.451” SST Bullets are going to be hard to get for the near future, as all available bullets are going on loaded factory ammo, this is a hot seller. Ammo is available from Hornady direct or everywhere on the internet and can be shipped to you. Rifles are easy to find in the same mannor, shipping is different. Yes, SST muzzle loading bullets can be had, but this is an expensive option if you plan on shooting allot. Same for brass, but just get some 284WIN or 6.5/284 brass cut them to 1.700” -.003 and bingo, until others come on board, hint-Corbon, maybe. The FL resize can be done with a standard 284 fl-die and bullet seating and taper crimp with 45ACP dies, watch the bullet seater, the wrong one will leave marks on the bullet. Yes, if pistol bullets are used, designed to expand at range and 300fps, they won’t penetrate large game, so use bullets that will for crying out loud, this caliber has been around for 150 years, there are highly available bullets for every and any use, save the HP‘s for home defense, they wont penetrate anything but will leave a real mess if you shoot flesh. Fact-Hornady’s 250gr SST are designed for big game and magnum muzzle loader speeds, 2000-2200fps (Hornady’s 450b 2200fps+). Therefore, that bullet at much higher speeds, +500-700fps, would also under-penetrate big game because of over expansion. Fact-Hornady’s 450B loading, I believe, was held down so as not to over stress that bullet on Big Game. According to my strain gage test the Hornady loading is 38,000psi. The AR is stressed to well over 75,000psi. And the 460S&W factory “PISTOL” ammo is 60,000psi. Fact-200gr to 300gr bullets can be made to speeds of 500fps to 700fps faster than the 38,000psi loads and not exceed 60,000psi, all with our normal powders. Fact- the Barnes 200gr and 275gr bullet, that are made for the 460S&W, will expand and penetrate “EVERYTHING” at the same time and will fly at 2800fps and 55,000psi and a little more psi for the 275gr. If that isn’t good enough and more penetration is needed try the various 230gr FMJ’s at 3000fps. I like the 230gr FP-FMJ’s best of all, the FP disrupts more tissue than expanded bullets, fly straight through the body with no inter-body deflection off bones, which is all to common with expansion bullets and can result in non-recovered animals and best of all, the FP’s will kill “EVERYTHING”-“ANYWHERE”, with truly amazing aplomb. Just a little foot-up for ya all, just to get you started…"

    The rifle comes with a 5 round magazine that's actually a 20 round 5.56 magazine with a single shot follower on top of the grey no-tilt 5.56 follower and a weird spring that limits the capacity to 5 rounds. My rifle will feed fine from the magazine with the single shot follower removed and will hold 7 rounds by replacing the spring with a regular 20 round magazine spring.

    Regular 5.56 magazines will work OK, 20 round mags hold 7 rounds and 30 round mags will hold 10-12 rounds. Steel magazines with the no-tilt follower work best.

    If your mags don't feed well add the single shot (blue) follower on top of the 5.56 follower.

    LeGendre's comments about these pressures in the 450 Bushmaster:

    "We normally load the 45 Pro to 60,000 psi with 230 ball or FMJ flat points my favorite. Yes, I know that the 458Socom and the 50Beo are loaded to the 35,000 psi area, but then again those great cartridges do not have the barrel thickness the 450b has in the chamber area. Here’s my example, a “Mountain Rifle”, bolt action weapon, chambered for the 284win case has a SAMMI spec in the area of 63,000 psi and has a barrel chamber diameter the same as the 450b. The other proof is Bushmaster told me that twice they loaded to these pressures and fired 6000 rds + each time with no ill effect and my friends and I load to these pressures and have done so for years, normally. So, why does Hornady load for 38,000 psi, as they have quoted? They tell me the Lawyers won or that they did not want to over stress their SST bullet, which is designed for magnum muzzle loader velocities of around 2000fps and would blow up on deer, like a varmint bullet would do, if you pushed them as we can actually do. My personal loads in the 450b, for the 250gr. bullet START at 2500fps and go up, but then who can afford those bullets, sold in twenty packs. I’ve tried the 200gr SST and compressed a load of 296 and achieved 2800fps, with only slightly flatting of the primers. If you need a pointed expanding bullet, Barnes makes excellent 200 & 275 grain varieties.

    As for “Bolt Thrust” with these pressures (70,000psi +), Wayne State University’s Engineering Dept., in a published article, I forget which gun rag ran it now, actually ran “MEASURED” test, not calculated and found that at these increased pressures, the bolt thrust was just a little less that the .223 case and this because of a effect known as Bernoulli's Theorem, which basically tells us that necked cartridges have way more bolt thrust than straight cases and all the bolt thrust formulas are based on those necked cases, hence not at all accurate for the 450b. My Buddies and I have never seen a bolt failure and don’t ever expect to and we only use, what you might call, max loads, we don’t think they are but others might and we’ve never had a problem and together we have maybe a million rounds down range or certainly many, many, 100,000’s at least."

    Like any other cartridge, some will load this one conservatively and some will push the limits. It's up to you to decide what feels right for your own comfort level and safety; however, you should shoot the rifle to experience the vastly different power pulse between a 223 upper and a 450b upper before making off the wall conclusions.

    My personal experience with this cartridge in the AR platform has been similar to my experience with the 45 Colt... 320 - 350 grain bullets and enhanced performance levels can be achieved safely in modern firearms.

    This information is presented simply as that, information. None of the load data presented by me in this thread exceeds Hornady's factory ammo specifications.

    Finally had a chance to work some more with the Thumper and cast boolits. Got to thinking how much I liked Unique in my 45 Colt Blackhawk and Puma 92. Looked up some data for the 45/70 in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and found loads with Unique. Started low and have so far worked up to 15.5 grs Unique. This isn't as much as the manual list for the 45/70 Ruger #1 loads but the 450 BM has less case capacity. This will not cycle the action (16inch BushMaster Arms 450BM) and will only occasionally eject the last round in the mag. To bad it won't cycle because I'm getting good initial results. Right at 1.5 inch at 50 yard with a red dot sight. Load seems real mild but I will probably switch to a slower powder to keep working up. Here's the load FYI.

    Hornady case
    Wolf small rifle primer
    15.5 grs. Unique
    Lee C452-300-rf, weighing 324grs checked and lubed
    OAL 1.964
    Average Velocity for only 5 shots, 1436 fps
    ES 16 fps
    SD 6 fps

    With that kind of SD it's really tempting to work up to just cycle the action.

    Stay safe,

    Boomer
    Quote Originally Posted by BD View Post
    I've done quite a lot of load work with the Lee 300 grainer and a 293 grainer I designed on the MM site. I've only shot a few of the 400+ boolits while working on subsonic loads, so I don't have much to offer you for those. You might spend some time looking around at:

    http://450bushmaster.net/

    One issue to watch out for using the heavier boolits is a bulge in the case at the heel of the longer boolits. You'll hit a point where they will chamber, but not quite let the gun go into battery, jamming the action. This leads to tapping the round back out with a rod while pulling back on the charging handle. A fairly dangerous proposition with a live round over a floating firing pin. This issue is a given if you're using cut down .284 brass, and it will also occur with the Hornady factory brass at some given boolit weight depending on your particular chamber.

    One reason I haven't spent much time with boolits much over 300 grains is that a 300 grainer @ 2,000 fps will completely penetrate any creature I'm likely to encounter end for end. So I don't see any reason to give up the trajectory, and deal with the loading headaches, of the longer boolits.

    BD

    and

    I have that mold in the garage waiting for me to get my reloading room put back together. After about 1,000 rounds I've learned a few things that you will discover:
    -You will want a gas check design as otherwise the gas port takes a little bite out of the boolit heel as it passes and deposits it on the rear of the bolt. I've had pretty poor accuracy with plain base boolits.
    -you will want to modify a lee 45/70 factory crimp die to use for a "waist" crimp just behind the rim. boolit pull as the cartridge is slammed into the chamber is a real issue. Without a real good crimp SDs can be in the 100's
    - cut down .284 cases are thicker than the hornady factory brass. This makes them more suitable for condoms in the .452 - .452 range as if you seat a .453 cast boolit heavier than about 230 grains, the boolit heel will bulge the case sides wedging the round in the chamber. They do give much better case neck tension with the jacketed stuff. The Hornady factory brass being thinner, it allows seating fatter cast boolits deeper with fewer problems.

    If you measure the boolit length and actual weight of that Lee 300 grain FP, then load a dummy round that will chamber and tell me the dimensions, I'll run the numbers on quickload.
    BD
    Quote Originally Posted by Jailer View Post

    AS A THOUGHT

    Did you know that you can put a gas check on plain base boolits?
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...as-check-maker
    http://www.patmarlins.com/
    Checkmaker™ PB version dies are breaking new ground-

    The beauty of the my PB version dies is you can take advantage of inexpensive thin metals. Shooters are now able to use and buy plain base molds in place of check shank molds and have the best of both worlds in one mold without the higher cost of thicker metals, or expensive factory gas checks.

    We are getting remarkable performance out of firearms, even auto loaders with group sizes shrinking, and no more leading. The PB dies have truly broke new ground, and have proven their performance with Checkmaker™ dies for 6 years now.

    I now have customers who are winning local IPSC competitions with PB gas checks.
    Last edited by Artful; 08-17-2014 at 02:00 PM.
    je suis charlie

    It is better to live one day as a LION than a dozen days as a Sheep.

    Thomas Jefferson Quotations:
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

  7. #7
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    TN
    Posts
    1,895
    Some years ago I toyed with the idea of this cartridge in an AR but the idea never really took root in my mind.

    I'm curious: how much meplat can you have on a .450BM bullet and still expect it to feed?

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master Artful's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Valley of the SUNs, AZ
    Posts
    9,254



    I would think as long as the meplat is under .24 should be ok.
    Last edited by Artful; 08-17-2014 at 08:44 PM.
    je suis charlie

    It is better to live one day as a LION than a dozen days as a Sheep.

    Thomas Jefferson Quotations:
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    NW Wyoming and Key West FL
    Posts
    454
    Thanks for the link to the mold but @ $92 for a DC blocks and a 280 gr GC bullet is a bit rich for a big bore plinker.
    Lee makes a 300 gr GC for <$30. Metplat might be a bit large but, if so, I can always use them in my S&W 460.
    Looks like a .451 sizer might be needed to avoid case bulge. Upper should arrive next week. BTW I have already swaged Hornady 45-70 300 gr jacketed HPs from .457 to .452 in the Lee bullet sizing die with no drama at all.
    The Patsmarlin GC maker looks neat, I wish he has prices on the website. That would make using the std 230 gr 45 acp PB a breeze.
    Last edited by Mr Humble; 08-17-2014 at 10:48 PM.

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master
    rockrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    5,304
    I have used the Lee 452-300rf in my 450 with good results. I size to .453"

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master Artful's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Valley of the SUNs, AZ
    Posts
    9,254
    True, if the Lee works it's the best bargin -
    If not look to NOE

    or Accurate for what you need...

    too bad I don't see the NOE Arcane molds on their web site

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...olit-Mould-Buy!
    je suis charlie

    It is better to live one day as a LION than a dozen days as a Sheep.

    Thomas Jefferson Quotations:
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

  12. #12
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    TN
    Posts
    1,895
    If big flat-noses would work, that would be an awesome cartridge.

    Over the years I've killed lots of deer with muzzleloaders with identical ballistics (250s at 2200) and they flat-out kill stuff.

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy

    IraqVet1982's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    136
    I've got two deer with my 450. One dropped immediately another ran about 20yds and dropped. They do the trick.

  14. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    NW Wyoming and Key West FL
    Posts
    454
    Quote Originally Posted by rockrat View Post
    I have used the Lee 452-300rf in my 450 with good results. I size to .453"
    So no feeding problems in an AR ? How hard are you casting them ? Thanks.

  15. #15
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    NW Wyoming and Key West FL
    Posts
    454
    Quote Originally Posted by Artful View Post
    True, if the Lee works it's the best bargin -
    If not look to NOE

    or Accurate for what you need...

    too bad I don't see the NOE Arcane molds on their web site

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...olit-Mould-Buy!
    According to the group buy description, those pointy ones were all w/o gas checks, too light and none in .452

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master Artful's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Valley of the SUNs, AZ
    Posts
    9,254
    Actually the heaviest weights had GC shanks and AL did run some in .452 - that group buy got sort of crazy they made some in almost every Pistol caliber I think...

    .626 dia
    .502 dia
    .476 dia (wt's: Fly wt 180gr, Med wt 257gr, Heavy wt 293gr approx for ww alloy)
    .460 (wt's Flywt 162gr, Med wt 232gr, heavy wt 264gr approx for ww alloy)
    .454 Dia
    .434 Dia
    .412 Dia
    .403 Dia
    .377 dia
    .360 Dia
    9mm/.358 dia
    Last edited by Artful; 08-24-2014 at 04:58 PM.
    je suis charlie

    It is better to live one day as a LION than a dozen days as a Sheep.

    Thomas Jefferson Quotations:
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    BD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Moosehead Lake
    Posts
    1,807
    The Lee .452 300-Rf works fine. No feeding issues, no leading issues. You will need gas checks. It's easy to get 2-1/2" groups at 100. You'll need to be pretty fussy to do a lot better.
    BD

  18. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    NW Wyoming and Key West FL
    Posts
    454
    Anyone using Hornady dies with jacketed or CBs ? If I use the taper crimp die (#4) shells will chamber but cannot be hand ejected. If I use it as a 3 die set no problems. Huh ?
    Same with Hornady .451 jacketed or the 300 Lee sized to .451 or .452.
    BTW the Lee feeds perfectly from the mag even when seated to the upper grease groove. First straight case die set I have ever had with a problem with the taper crimp die (9mm, 44 mag, 45 acp, 460 S&W)

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
    BD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Moosehead Lake
    Posts
    1,807
    Humble, crimping is the area where this round requires a little more effort. You need to use the "thunk" test when adjusting the crimp die. Pull your upper and drop a loaded dummy round in, you are looking for the "thunk" sound as the case mouth hit's the end of the chamber. Too much crimp and the case mouth fit's past the end of the chamber and the round gets wedged in. I use a "waist crimp" die I made from a lee 45/70 FCD. It's modified so it puts a collet crimp on .1" below the case mouth. This gives me a solid crimp without reducing the diameter of the case mouth so I get reliable chambering and consistent ignition.
    http://www.450bushmaster.net/viewforum.php?f=5

  20. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    NW Wyoming and Key West FL
    Posts
    454

    Talking

    Thanks, I talked to Hoot (450 BM site) and Hornady this AM and UNLIKE all other handgun 4 dies sets, die #4 is NOT designed to bring the loaded round back to original dimensions. It is only a taper crimp die (would be nice if Hornady took a page from Lee and included specific instructions with their dies !) I was told to back the die way out and move it down a bit at a time until the proper taper crimp was made AND the round could still be hand ejected. The method is more like putting a roll crimp on. "Try and test, try and test until you get it."
    Question now is how to I salvage the cases that I have full length run into die #4. A 45 ACP die is too tight, but perhaps trying a bit at a time in my 460 S&W Lee die might get rid of the sticking point.

    BTW anyone got loads for the 300 gr Lee with H110, 2400 or 4227 ? (Saving my Lil Gun for my Hornets)

    Thanks

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check