This is why I like PC'd boolits

[smokesahoy]

It is good news that this is working so well for your needs but I have to question part of your statement in, """"Accuracy is just as good or better than lubed boolits,""""
I see this same statement from different folks whose names here seem new to me and so possibly new to either shooting boolits and or casting them.
In the past year or so there has been much information offered here at CB on the subject of coating boolits. From all the honest reports reported without bias I have been unimpressed with the results compaired to conventional lubed boolits.
I have seen no gain in potential of either accuracy or velocity. From what I have seen reported the only gain is less messy and for that trade average accuracy is being compromised. Before I can accept coating as being equal to lubing I would like to see an apples to apples comparison shot for accuracy from the same gun with the same boolit coated and lubed.
I really hope this expressed opinion does not anger you because I have no desire to engage in argument. Its just that before I can except such a statement as more than opinion I like to see real irrefutable proof.
Believe me as a boolit merchant I have been watching and if/when I see a potencial gain in ballistic or accuracy performance I will be offering them but thus far I have not seen that gain. On average I have seen a slight sacrifice to accuracy with coating compaired to lubing which may be acceptable with the type of shooting most folks seem to be doing with them.

Are you researching powders so you can sell one with a special name as a proprietary super powder ala 2 cycle and wax? Joking.. Kind of

[Bullshop]

Yea that's it.

[RobS]

monkey.
the problem with that would be I have measured my rifle and fit my mold to it.
if you pc'd my boolits they wouldn't chamber.
yeah .001 matters.
so I'd have to start all over and have the mold cut to allow however much pc was going to be put on the boolits.
I don't know if you can control the spray or whatever to keep .001 consistently all over the boolits surface.
if you miss on one side by .0005 my groups will be flung into oblivion at the rpms they are turning.
that ain't fun it's torture.

Bingo. My custom molds due to the coating would need to be redone or rethought out with consideration to nose diameter increase which would as R5R mentioned be difficult to account for when coating. In addition the curing/baking of the boolit messes with my heat treated boolit hardness. Even my semi-auto pistol boolits needed to be seated a bit deeper to a shorter COAL to chamber although this isn't too big of a deal. I originally started to work with PC to try and get away from a lube in the rifle as ambient temps would have less effect I felt on a PC'd boolit but there were other variables as mentioned that resulted in worse accuracy in the rifle.

On a good note though PC was cleaner shooting, less smoke and I didn't see much if any difference with the 45 ACP shooting I did vs a traditional lubed boolit. PC also can do something that a traditional lubed boolit can't, it can increase the size of a boolit should it be dropping from the mold at a smaller diameter which is a nice quality should a person have these issues. PC'ing or similar does have it's advantages for sure and is why there are so many followers. I may go back and explore it more as the process is perfected and repeated by others.

[snuffy]

So what kind of test would/could be done to convince the doubters? Even though I'm barely into powder coating boolits, I've had some good results. By barely into it, I mean I have only used harbor freight red, and only used the tumble coating process. (I hate the acronyms, I can't keep track of the interpretations). The plastic tub/airsoft method is only marginal for me, I went with a midway tumbler and air soft BB's. it's fast and coats well.

I bought a convection toaster oven at Goodwill, cost me $9.00, new, that would be a $150.00 oven. That got the heat out of the house, double cost to run the gas oven, then crank up the AC to cool off. It works great outside, in winter it will help heat the house.

"So what kind of test would/could be done to convince the doubters?" yeah, I know none or nothing short of a ballistic lab would be enough. BUT, I have my own pistols in multiple calibers that I can do direct comparisons between lubed and powder coated boolits. I have multiple molds, Lee, Lyman, and MP that I can run lubed with White Label Carnuba red/lubed in a 450, and powder coated with HF red.

I can run 25 and 50 yards, while putting them on targets while running over a pact chronograph. Shooting would be off a tripod with rifle front sandbags, handheld to eliminate as much hand movement as possible.

I can also catch some fired boolits to see the effect of passage down the tube and expansion. I've already done that, caught some in the wax expansion medium. The HF red was intact, just gets ironed into the boolit. Don't know how the pics ended up there, but that's 2 nines, and 2 45's. One of the 45's is a 200 HP MP mold, just wanted to see if the dead soft boolit would expand, and how the coating fared. The coating held on AND it still expanded. The nines were cast of dead soft lead, it was too soft, it deformed badly and
was horrible for accuracy. The TC nines missed the entire target from 25 yards! BUT they did not lead the bbl.!

I already plan on testing some nines, and eventually some 45's. My CZ 75b would be the test gun for nines, a SA 1911 for the 45's. I will run them over the chrono, and keep the targets. I'll post the results, then sit back, watch the arguments start.

BTW, where's the rule against thread drift. The best discussions sometime grow from thread drift.

[meicalnissyen]

I may be feeling that.
I just got back into shooting after a bit of a hiatus, and now own a BFR to keep my 35yo
BH company
using Matt Dardas 335 grain, I have downloaded a good bit in the comfort of 4759, and went thru a couple hundred, my second order I specd unlubed and unsized and PC'd with PBTP clear. and they do seem to be scattering.
I just did an informal powder test with some of MATTS bullets the 440 GC type, and they are much tighter than the dardas335 PC's
but under very unequal situations.

I think, I shall make up 10 PC and 10 with the dardas blue lube, use the starting charge of N110 on each, and see what prints at 50yards.

I will try to keep the flinching to a minimum and have my kid load for me.
oohh a single blind study.

Just got my mod from Dan (thanks man) one more coming, and have my lee 45C mold ready to make checked, and unchecked

So exciting
and I even burned myself a bit before the first pour, glad I got that out of the way.

its tru, isnt it, that there are 2 types of casters:
those that have been burnt, and those that will be

just like bikers and crashes

anyway, I will post unbiased group sizes and pics whenever I get that test done

It is good news that this is working so well for your needs but I have to question part of your statement in, """"Accuracy is just as good or better than lubed boolits,""""
I see this same statement from different folks whose names here seem new to me and so possibly new to either shooting boolits and or casting them.
In the past year or so there has been much information offered here at CB on the subject of coating boolits. From all the honest reports reported without bias I have been unimpressed with the results compaired to conventional lubed boolits.
I have seen no gain in potential of either accuracy or velocity. From what I have seen reported the only gain is less messy and for that trade average accuracy is being compromised. Before I can accept coating as being equal to lubing I would like to see an apples to apples comparison shot for accuracy from the same gun with the same boolit coated and lubed.
I really hope this expressed opinion does not anger you because I have no desire to engage in argument. Its just that before I can except such a statement as more than opinion I like to see real irrefutable proof.
Believe me as a boolit merchant I have been watching and if/when I see a potencial gain in ballistic or accuracy performance I will be offering them but thus far I have not seen that gain. On average I have seen a slight sacrifice to accuracy with coating compaired to lubing which may be acceptable with the type of shooting most folks seem to be doing with them.

[Bullshop]

I have only one test for any bullet/boolits I use and that is accuracy. I shoot very little handgun compared to rifle boolits. I simply want my boolits to be as accurate as they can be. Any method of lubing/coating them that proves superior is what I will use weather that be lubing, coating, or pizzing on them.
Check with some of the folks that can do amazingly accurate things with hand guns like 44 Man and see if they are doing it with coated boolits.
I applaud you folks that are blazing the trail but as far as I can see now your running with the tortes and way behind that hair. I know though that the race is not always to the swift so I watch.

[flyingmonkey35]

Egads,

This again.

Let's put the challenges to bed people.

I sorta went down that path early on this post and it blew up.

PC is not for the shooters using custom molds. Not yet any way.

We all agree PC works Great on pistol boolits.

Now for us in the powder coating world. We need to start with rifle.

Our challenge is to get moa 1inch at 100 yards.

With cast powder coated boolit. With or without gaschecks. Your call.

Benchrest is fine.

Post results.

I look forward to reading about it.

[Blanco]

The other thing to consider here is the number of variables involved. From alloy, to boolit design to shooter and gun. How many years have the grease groovers had to perfect their formula ? A pretty good few.
I got into casting a little less than a year ago to save money! Boy has that ever not been the case.... I am shooting more, and more accurately. I tried the grease for quite a while and just failed miserably. I suppose if I had stayed with it longer I may have found the right combinations. For me Powder Coat was really a face saver. Not to mention my leading and smoke issues went away. I have only been loading pistol so far and I have had to experiment to get good results with the PC. I am getting ready to jump over to rifle loading and i am sure there will be a learning curve there too.

[RobS]

Now for us in the powder coating world. We need to start with rifle.

Our challenge is to get moa 1inch at 100 yards.

With cast powder coated boolit. With or without gaschecks. Your call.

Benchrest is fine.

Post results.

I look forward to reading about it.

How about a velocity range as well as alloy in there too as you examine the difference between traditional lubed and coated boolits. There is a considerable difference between 1700-1800 fps in a rifle and 2300-2400 fps and beyond. Additionally, how about the thought of being able to use a rifle boolit that can be hunted with while working high velocity for flatter trajectory? Working a boolit for hunting puts using a hard alloy out of the equation due to the brittleness of using alloys like lino etc.

I've been there and done it with the rifle (tested out on a 375 H&H) and yes 1 MOA is very achievable with air cooled boolits but at lower velocities (OK to around 2100 fps). However when I pushed 2300 fps with essentially an air cooled WW boolit I ended up with a leaded barrel because the powder coated boolit simply was stripped by the RPM's of the twist rate/velocity and the accuracy went south along with it. I said essentially an air cooled WW boolit because it takes a curing process in the oven to get the PC/Hi-Tek to adhere which in turn anneals my heat treated boolits to a softer BHN hardness.

[flyingmonkey35]

Robs

Just out of curiosity

How long did they cure before you shot them?

I also noticed that if you drop the lot /tray into water right after you pull them out of the oven. The PC is a bit more brittle.

Wonder if that would make a difference.

[RobS]

I never did quench the PC'd boolits. However I started out with 22 BHN heat treated WW boolits and by the time I set them in the oven to cure the PC at 400 degrees for 20 minutes as the HF Red PC directions stated and after this the boolits BHN was down to nearly an air cooled BHN hardness.

[Bullshop]

How about a velocity range as well as alloy in there too as you examine the difference between traditional lubed and coated boolits. There is a considerable difference between 1700-1800 fps in a rifle and 2300-2400 fps and beyond. Additionally, how about the thought of being able to use a rifle boolit that can be hunted with while working high velocity for flatter trajectory? Working a boolit for hunting puts using a hard alloy out of the equation due to the brittleness of using alloys like lino etc.

I've been there and done it with the rifle (tested out on a 375 H&H) and yes 1 MOA is very achievable with air cooled boolits but at lower velocities (OK to around 2100 fps). However when I pushed 2300 fps with essentially an air cooled WW boolit I ended up with a leaded barrel because the powder coated boolit simply was stripped by the RPM's of the twist rate/velocity and the accuracy went south along with it. I said essentially an air cooled WW boolit because it takes a curing process in the oven to get the PC/Hi-Tek to adhere which in turn anneals my heat treated boolits to a softer BHN hardness.

On the other hand I shot this today from a 22/250 using the NOE 62gn fngc cast from COWW and quenched. Target was fired at 100 yards laser measured and average velocity for the five shots is 2695.4 fps.
As for hunting this load explodes cotton tail rabbits with authority!

[garym1a2]

For 9mm and 40 S&W I can lube and size much faster with powder coat than the lubesizer. Smoke is much lower and this is important in some matches. Accuracy is decent with powder coat and allows me to shoot my 9mm CX4 storm with out a leaded barrel.

[sparky45]

I have the same results in my .380's (one is the Glock 42), my 357 SP101, my 45's and my 300 BlackOut. PC are good.

[snuffy]

The other thing to consider here is the number of variables involved. From alloy, to boolit design to shooter and gun. How many years have the grease groovers had to perfect their formula ? A pretty good few.
I got into casting a little less than a year ago to save money! Boy has that ever not been the case.... I am shooting more, and more accurately. I tried the grease for quite a while and just failed miserably. I suppose if I had stayed with it longer I may have found the right combinations. For me Powder Coat was really a face saver. Not to mention my leading and smoke issues went away. I have only been loading pistol so far and I have had to experiment to get good results with the PC. I am getting ready to jump over to rifle loading and i am sure there will be a learning curve there too.

Any test I or anyone else would do would only be with my particular alloy, gun, powder , primer PC powder type and color, weather that day, AND my skill level/eyesight. SO why bother? I can say I've been shooting for 60 years, reloading and casting for 50 and fired tens of thousands of rounds.

IF you don't think powder coating works, or you have great success with lubed/sized boolits, then don't try it.

I was slow to get on the bandwagon. I didn't have the room to do it, no compressor, and certainly not enough money$$$. When beagle came over on TFL with his tumble coating process, I saw how I could try it with only the cost of a pound of HF powder coat red. It works! The only additional $$ I spent was on the oven and some non-stick foil, maybe $18.00.

[Bullshop]

That's great snuffy I'm glad you could do that staying within your means. I have to ask why though everyone that seems so enthralled with coating seems to refuse to want to look at the performance difference that is obviously in favor of lubing at least to this point in the knowledge base of coating.
Tell me please in all the years you have been doing this have you ever settled for any one particular load that is proven to be less accurate than another? I doubt it ! On the same token why settle for a form of boolit prep that as far as I can see on average is less accurate than another? It goes against everything we as reloaders strive for in our attempts to extract the very best from our loads.
To be honest it rather saddens me to see so many folks so easily settling for a second best proposition and trying to justify it with excuses like " its faster than lubing" to which I say -- BULL ! --- , or its less smokey to which I say -- less smokey than what?
Please don't be offended by the fact that I have posted proof of a level of performance that a coated boolit cant begin to touch or maybe I should say that I have seen so far. Maybe coaters will get there with enough perseverance and prodding by the likes of myself and if they stop making excuses and settling for less performance than can be had.

For the folks that are happy to shoot at 15 feet at car door size targets if that satisfies your shooting itch have at it but that sort of thing does nothing for me or my on going quest to constantly push the envelope and learn something new. Being able to put my targets farther away as I learn better how to do that is what keeps it interesting for me.
I have never been one to just go with the flow but instead go it on my own and learn by doing to find what works best. So far I believe I have found that in conventionally lubing boolits and not in coating. I was once told that only dead fish go with the flow and live fish swim against the current and I do seem to be swimming against the coating current.

[morayman]

Bullshop,I don't think PC is for everyone and I don't think you're going to be one that it will be benificial for.A lot of people shoot for different reasons,your needs aren't the same as everyone's that powder coats.I'm not trying to be a smart ***,but I just don't think this is for you,your needs are for more prescision shooting.We'll blunder along at our own pace making improvements and learning as we go,as this is still a reatively new process.Please don't think of us that are using this method and liking it as lesser shooters,we just have different needs.morayman.....................

[flyingmonkey35]

LOL Bullshop,

CAR door target at 15 feet, i just try and hit the BARN from 10 feet!

As most of us have stated.

For INDOOR shooting smoke can be a issue. Trad lube can be smokey.

For pistols that can be a big deal.

But if im shooting outdoors, on a nice day, smoke is not a issue, i can shoot a Black Powder Muzzelloader / Pistol all day and still have fun, but couldnt do it indoors.

for my pistol shooting i shoot at 15 feet with at a pice of paper with a bulleye target.
i figure if im shooting the 2 inch dot in the middle im doing pretty dam good, with any pistol at that distance with a 2 inch barrel.

if im shooting a full size pistol i up it to 25 feet. still hit the paper.

if im shooting Rifel i shoot at a 6 to inch gong a betwen 50 yards and 100 yards, depding on the rifle im shooting.

9mm high point, blackpoweder or my 30-30.

Next time i load up some of my 30-30 Ill set up a paper target at 100 and see what i can do and post it.

[Bullshop]

morayman
I know your right and I am sorry for being such a dink about it. My life must be so very different from many others here because when I think about shooting indoor shooting never comes to mind because I have never done it or even seen an indoor range.
All my shooting is geared to hunting in some form either for food or for profit so that is the way my casting and loading leans. About the only use I would have for coated boolits is for dispatching something in a trap at close range so there is really no need for me to get involved with coating. If anyone ever figures out how to make a soft coated boolit shoot like a hard lubed boolit in a rifle I will be paying close attention.
BTW I tried that 22/250 load today at 200 yards shooting over the hood of my PU and shot ten shots in about 6". The load must shoot darn good because through the 4x Lyman scope I was seeing about 6" of wobble. See that is what I mean I can meander down the road a couple miles and have endless opportunities to shoot to unlimited distance. Its always been this way for me, its all I know.
Sorry if I have been acting like a lube snob!

[Love Life]

Bullshop- Accuracy is the ultimate goal? Buy some Bergers or Matchkings. You don't want to use coatings due to degraded accuracy (maybe?) but you shoot cast to save money which are not as accurate as Match Kings or Bergers. How come you settle for less?