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Thread: 22 rimfire bullets start to finish

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by rondog View Post
    Wow! I'd dearly love to see some good photos of these .40/.44-.45 and 9mm/.308 bullets, and any others that you guys make! I've never even seen any but I'm becoming obsessed with the concept.

    Photos please? Or links to photo-rich threads?

    Anybody in the Denver area that does this?
    Here are some 45s made from 40 (the back row)
    I was messing around with different combinations and these are some of the results.
    I made these with a corbin reloading die set, I don't use it much anymore though as I have been converting to my walnut hill set more and more

  2. #202
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    I've been re-reading this thread and intrigued with the lead wire extruding die. I did as much of a search as I know how to do (for some reason I can never get the search to work right for me) and could not find anything more on it. So, who makes one and how much? One that would work in a WH press. I have SOME lead wire and a core mold, but an extruder sure would be nice. Thanks for any help.
    Terry
    Last edited by kc3ak; 07-26-2015 at 07:38 AM.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by kc3ak View Post
    I've been re-reading this thread and intrigued with the lead wire extruding die. I did as much of a search as I know how to do (for some reason I can never get the search to work right for me) and could not find anything more on it. So, you make one and how much? One that would work in a WH press. I have SOME lead wire and a core mold, but an extruder sure would be nice. Thanks for any help.
    Terry
    That's why I don't like to do searches here either. Too difficult, not the same as other forums. Somehow, Google is involved and drags up stuff from everywhere.

  4. #204
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    I don't recall there being much on lead extrusion on this site, but I could be wrong. Not much out there. I recall that one fellow was using a log splitter to push lead through a home made die that was almost as big around as my wrist. My own efforts with my Old Corbin S press and hand made dies was a fail. I split three dies down the side with less than a foot of wire total. one other try with a 20 ton shop press resulted in lead flow around the punch, locking things permanently together until I melted the lead out. Clearly this is a very precise operation and needs more time and study than I have to give at present.
    "let's go. He ain't hittin' nothin'.".... "You IDIOT, he's hit everything he's aimed at!"

  5. #205
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  6. #206
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    With shelves empty of reloading supplies and ammo it seems like a good time to share a bit of knowledge on how to become more self-reliant of one's shooting needs by describing the steps involved for those that may wish to someday make their own bullets.

    *I have attempted to provide a non bias review here of the process and advantages involved with making excellent bullets from various materials that may include scrap brass, copper tubing and commercially available jackets. There may be those out there that may feel my opinions are bias as I have spent over ten years to develop, perfect and offer the dies and tooling mentioned below. I recommend to anyone that is interested in buying the necessary tooling to spend a little time in researching the products available from all manufactures (not very many out there to choose from) that offer these products as it can represent a pretty good investment. I ask that any reference to cost or availability of these dies be made in PMs and hope that the mods here on this site will allow a thread like this to spread a bit of knowledge to further promote the hobbies we all share and enjoy on this great site.

    Wow.... where to start

    History- I suppose many of you may already be a little bit familiar with at least the process of making bullets, not reloading ammo, actually forming projectiles from copper jackets and lead cores. The history of course goes back a long ways but I like to recall the early days of Fred Huntington of RCBS developing a press and bullet making dies and Vernon Speer going door to door selling 22 cal bullets made from 22lr brass cases during the shortages of WWII. Many of you may already know that RCBS stands for Rock Chuck Bullet Swage.

    Cost- I bet many of you that may have been interested enough to research just a little found the necessary tooling and dies required to make one's own bullets represent a much greater investment then the standard set of reloading dies. Any further research into making bullets probably ended there. I can assure you all the initial investment doesn't have to be that much and the returns can be made up quickly depending on what bullet you wish to make.

    Time- Then there is the time involved in making a finished bullet. I relate it similarly to the process of reloading quality ammo. Reloading ammo can take a little time and involve many steps depending on how far the reloader wishes to go in search of utmost in accuracy, certainly longer then picking up a few boxes of loaded ammo off the shelves. But there is also potential to save money when reloading, after all the initial investments in press, dies, powder, bullets, primers, etc. has been made.

    Satisfaction- I feel this is the biggest reason to making your own bullets. Many of you that reload your own ammo already have experienced a bit of this, the feeling of that trophy you took from ammo you loaded yourself, that small match winning group, or hitting steel way out there. That feeling is multiplied greatly when it with ammo you made yourself. Now imagine those shots where not only with ammo you loaded yourself but with a bullet you made too, the feeling is “priceless.”

    Freedom- In times of shortages like what are experiencing now, have experienced in the past and certainly will experience again in the future, being able to supply yourself and/or others with bullets to supply your shooting needs is again “priceless” and possibly even a source of necessary income or in trade goods. To free yourself from those that will attempt to regulate your shooting needs is a great feeling, to be able to keep on shooting when others won’t or can’t…… is AWESOME!

    Let’s see then….. While the process is very similar no matter what caliber or weight bullet one wishes to make lets start with making the awesome 55 grain 22 cal bullet from scrap 22lr brass!


    55 grain 22 cal bullet made from 22lr brass




    Set of swage dies and base punches




    Lee Classic Cast Press set up for making bullets




    Standard RCBS press set up for making bullets




    Process requires a few steps and a little bit of time but it is not difficult and can be accomplished by anyone with a decent reloading press and a little patience and ability. If you can reload safe ammo you have all the skills necessary to swage your own bullets.

    First thing we must start with clean 22lr brass. The worst thing for expensive bullet swage dies is dirty brass.


    Step 1. Derim the 22lr brass forming a jacket. A base punch with a pin of specific dimeter is used to iron out the rim of the 22lr brass as it is pushed threw a derim die. What comes out the top of the die is a brass jacket all most ready to be formed into a bullet. I use RCBS case lube for this step because it is easy to wash off. To make accurate bullets you do not want any sort of lube or grease to come into contact with the inside of the jacket.


    derimed 22lr case

    Step 2. Clean and anneal the derimed jackets. We must anneal the derimed 22lr jackets so they will form a perfect nose. If the jacket is too hard the jacket will fold in on its self at the tip rather then “flow” or swage into the perfect point. The brass must be heated to a temp above 800 degrees to achieve the necessary softness of the brass. By the way…. Brass is made up of 70% copper and 30% Zink, the same two components that make up commercial jackets which is Guilding Metal made up of 95% copper and 5% zink. So there is no harm to be done to the barrel shooting bullets made form brass. It has been shown that Zink actually has a lubrication property to it when used in bullet jackets. After the brass has been annealed the brown scale must be cleaned from the jacket. A quick tumble in stainless steel media produces a jacket now ready to be turned into a bullet.


    Over 5,000 jackets made form 22lr brass ready to become bullets


    Step 3. Making the lead core. One can either cut their lead cores from lead wire or cast their cores from a custom mold using scrap lead. I have done it both ways and both achieve the necessary perfect result yet for the shooter that already may cast boolits using scrap lead can be a lot cheaper then buying lead wire. I use a custom 11 cavity mold that when using pure lead drops cores that are about 50 grains in weight. Two evening of casting over a weekend can produce a mountain of lead slugs ready to be used for making bullets!


    Takes very little time to turn scrap lead into bullet cores!

    Step 4. Swage lead core to equal weights. To be able to make a bullet with both a specific and consistent weight we squish the lead slugs in a die that has a bleed hole in the side of it. This is commonly referred to as a “bleed die.” In my case I take the 50 grain cast lead slugs and need to remove about 5 grains worth so that when paired with the 10 grain 22lr jacket it will produce a 55 grain final weight bullet. Again RCBS case lube is used on the cores so when done the cores will be washed free of all lube. A good bleed die will produce cores that are equal in weight to plus or minus 1 tenth of a grain.


    A clean swaged core and jacket ready for the next step

    Step 5. Seat the core inside the jacket. Using a tight fitting base punch and a core seating die the lead core is placed inside the jacket and pushed up into the mouth of the die. Just enough pressure is then applied to expand both the lead core and brass jacket to the internal diameter of the core seat die. The seated core and jacket combination is now about .2235” in diameter. Quality Anhydrous Lanolin based swage lube is used in this step to ensure proper formation of the seated jacket and extraction of the jacket from the core seat die. Proper care is used to ensure no lube is present on the inside of the jacket or on the lead core.



    Pile of 22 cal seated cores and jackets ready to form into bullets!


    Step 6. Final point formation. With the lead core seated in the jacket the only thing left to do is form the point. A quality point form die with the perfect polished finish is necessary here to produce a quality bullet. The ejection pin used to push the bullet out of the die will be the same diameter of the tip of the bullet being formed, in this case about .062” in diameter. This is also why standard lubes used for reloading is not recommended. The same Lanolin based lube used during core seating is again used for point formation. A precise amount of lube must be used with every bullet formed. When using 22lr for jackets if we use too much lube it will form dimples in the curve of the bullet, same as too much lube used when sizing brass will form dimples in the shoulder of the case. The same is also true if we use too little lube, we run the risk of getting a bullet stuck in the die, same as what is possible with getting a case stuck in the FL reloading die. But when the die is good and the proper amount of lube is used on stroke of the press to push the jacket into the point form die and the subsequent push of the ejection system on the ejection pin of the die and out pops a perfectly formed 22 cal bullet that now has point formed to a small tip of only .062” and a final bullet diameter of exactly .2240”.


    Perfect 22 cal bullets made from 22lr brass ready to load!

    The process is now complete. Perfect 55 grain 22 cal bullets have been made from free scrap 22lr brass and a bit of lead. The initial investment in quality dies and tooling can be a bit of sticker shock as the amount of labor to produce these high precision dies and tooling is high but for the shooter that wants to take his reloading hobby to the next level, or the shooter that no longer wants to be at the mercy of supply shortages and those attempting to regulate their shooting needs, making your own bullets is a very rewarding experience.


    I'll add more pics and results as well as additional bullet calibers in following threads or posts.

    Till then I say,

    Good Shooting and Swage On!

    Brian
    BTX Star Crimp Die
    Back in stock with new low price!
    Click link below!
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Star-Crimp-Die


    also check in and say hello on my new face book page!
    https://www.facebook.com/BTSniper-153949954674572/

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyThor View Post
    Since many have asked, thought I would share how I do it.

    I use two sources for my cores. lead wire I bought and cores I cast from melted wheel weights. My molds are actual bullet molds with a core hole drilled in the botton of the bullet mold. Then I but the sprew cutter on the bottom. The lead wire I cut with a home made cutter my dad made or a Corbin cutter I just got. pictures hopefully will attach to this as I go.


    After I collect all the rimfire cases I can I swage the rim off with a punch and die my dad made. now I have a jacket that has to be anealed.


    This last batch was anealed at a temp of 800 degrees by a friend with a oven for tempering steel etc. There are many other ways to do this step, but I like to do it in bulk. Here is what the jackets look like after heating.



    I swage my cores to a uniform weight using either a Herters press or my Corbin core swage dies. The herters gives me a little bigger core diameter than my current Corbin die. the cores look like this when smooshed.


    It does not seem to matter weather I am using lead wire or the cast wheelweights, when I swage the cores they all end up at pretty much the same weight. The wheel weights are harder than pure lead but I have not had any trouble seating them.


    After seating the cores I am ready to put points on them. I have used many different presses to do this. I think you can make 22 cal bullets on most any decent press. Here is a picture of my little Hollywood press making a bullet.

    I am sure there are better ways to do this but this is how I started making bullets to shoot at gophers and it works for me. Hope this helps anyone with questions.

    Added this set of pictures to update this sticky. I started using this jig to load cores into the jackets en-mass. It is a series of Lexan Plates with holes drilled so that the jackets are held while the cores are shaken or vibrated into them. Then the plates are removed and the cores can be seated. It will usually drop about 80% of the cores with a few shakes and the rest can be installed but hand. Normally there would be an outside box to keep the cores from rolling off, but I left it off for the pictures.

    Awesome! And where can you get one of them “core shaker”? I’ve been looking for one and cannot nor have anyone point me in the right direction...

  8. #208
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    I have several of BTSnipers dies and they produce Great bullets!!!!

  9. #209
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    I have read most of this thread, thank you to all who contribute to the general education of those who wish to apply themselves.

  10. #210
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    I have read this thread to investigate making .224 bullets.

    My needs are reasonably accurate (1 MOA) bullets. I can purchase commercial bullets for $87.50/1000 delivered.

    https://www.armorally.com/shop/horna...r-spire-point/

    Looking at the Corbin site, I can buy dies and core cutter for under $1000. With spools of lead wire from Corbin at $200/40 lb, and free .22 cases, I can produce 18k bullets for about $600...$35/1000.

    If I sell the Corbin dies after producing 18k bullets for say $500 my total investment would be $1100 vs buying 18k bulk Hornady bullets for $1575.

    I would like some help/data is wrt the time to produce bullets using a Rock Chucker press. My guess is with cleaning cases, annealing, de-riming, cutting cores, seating and point forming, production rate is about 100 bullets an hour. Is that reasonable??? So about 180 hours to make 18k bullets and save $475.

    If I go with a core mold from BT Sniper, that adds $275. Cost of pure lead is say $1.50/lb so the cost of making 18k (50 gr) cores would be $200 in lead. About 1/3 the cost of buying lead wire. If I sell the core mold for $125, my cost for cores would be $350 for a saving of $250 over using lead wire. I assume the time needed to cast cores will be about the same as cutting cores. Casting cores works out to a total saving of $725 for 180 hours of time.

    Unless productivity is far greater than 100 bullets an hour, swaging is not going to be a good fit for me. I currently have about 10k .224 bullets and another 18k will give me a lifetime supply. Spending 180 hours to save less than $750 is not worth it. Being old (70) I will not shoot enough to use up 28k bullets.

    Make my own???
    I have a lathe and looked at "what if I made my own dies and mold". $125 of material and 80 hours of machining time...plan for lots of mistakes...LOL. Are those numbers reasonable?

    That puts the economics at $125 for dies and mold. Time goes to 260 hours. Savings of $1400. Less than $5.50/hr...still does not make a lot of sense.

    This is not like reloading or casting where there are substantial savings. There needs to be a lot of love for the craft to make .224 bullets. Unless I am missing something.
    Don Verna


  11. #211
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    In my opinion, home swaging bullets is not a way to save time or money. Yes, it's enjoyable and entertaining, but becomes more like work when you set a goal of thousands.
    You cannot discover new oceans unless you have the courage to lose sight of the shore

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    I have read this thread to investigate making .224 bullets.

    My needs are reasonably accurate (1 MOA) bullets. I can purchase commercial bullets for $87.50/1000 delivered.

    https://www.armorally.com/shop/horna...r-spire-point/

    Looking at the Corbin site, I can buy dies and core cutter for under $1000. With spools of lead wire from Corbin at $200/40 lb, and free .22 cases, I can produce 18k bullets for about $600...$35/1000.

    If I sell the Corbin dies after producing 18k bullets for say $500 my total investment would be $1100 vs buying 18k bulk Hornady bullets for $1575.

    I would like some help/data is wrt the time to produce bullets using a Rock Chucker press. My guess is with cleaning cases, annealing, de-riming, cutting cores, seating and point forming, production rate is about 100 bullets an hour. Is that reasonable??? So about 180 hours to make 18k bullets and save $475.

    If I go with a core mold from BT Sniper, that adds $275. Cost of pure lead is say $1.50/lb so the cost of making 18k (50 gr) cores would be $200 in lead. About 1/3 the cost of buying lead wire. If I sell the core mold for $125, my cost for cores would be $350 for a saving of $250 over using lead wire. I assume the time needed to cast cores will be about the same as cutting cores. Casting cores works out to a total saving of $725 for 180 hours of time.

    Unless productivity is far greater than 100 bullets an hour, swaging is not going to be a good fit for me. I currently have about 10k .224 bullets and another 18k will give me a lifetime supply. Spending 180 hours to save less than $750 is not worth it. Being old (70) I will not shoot enough to use up 28k bullets.

    Make my own???
    I have a lathe and looked at "what if I made my own dies and mold". $125 of material and 80 hours of machining time...plan for lots of mistakes...LOL. Are those numbers reasonable?

    That puts the economics at $125 for dies and mold. Time goes to 260 hours. Savings of $1400. Less than $5.50/hr...still does not make a lot of sense.

    This is not like reloading or casting where there are substantial savings. There needs to be a lot of love for the craft to make .224 bullets. Unless I am missing something.
    John Ross asked a similar question a few years ago here:

    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...-rimfire-brass

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    John Ross asked a similar question a few years ago here:

    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...-rimfire-brass
    Appreciate the link sir!!

    Looks like a process that has little/no economic benefit unless a persons time has no value.

    I understand the self sufficiency aspect, but that is not a strong driver for an old man. And I understand it being “fun” for those who find the process enjoyable...but I would not.

    I will stock up on commercial bullets when things settle down. The last batch I purchased were $420/6000 and I expect they will be about $500/6000 in a couple of months.
    Don Verna


  14. #214
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    Many will talk about saving money or being able to shoot during stupid shortage times, but I truly love just swaging as a hobby in itself aside from shooting. Like reloading I’ve fallen into love with the aspect and science of bullet building. Yes of course it’s nice to have unlimited projectile supplies, but the amount of time I get to play around with swaging and having fun is the value for me.

    If one looks at it from only as a form of saving money, I think one has missed the whole side of swaging that makes it worth it. But just like the art of reloading, it’s not for everyone if you don’t like tedious tasks and testing your abilities at tinkering. Time spent on it is not only irreverent but positive when it’s something you love to do.
    Last edited by SSG_Reloader; 09-05-2021 at 10:06 PM.

  15. #215
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    As someone who is dipping his toes into the swaging world, I have found this thread to be both very helpful, and at the same time,, a bit overwhelming with some stuff. Of course a few posts have little to zero help in being a tutorial,, but I have no issues with that.

    As noted,, if a person is trying to get into it for the potential of cost savings,, and pays retail for the equipment,, it'd take a LOT of bullet making to be cost effective. And as noted,, if you try & put a price on your time,, then it'd require an even larger number of bullets to cover all that.

    But,, if you desire the independence and freedom from worry about supplies or being at the mercy of a commercial company,, then it has a very positive advantage.
    But even more,, it's very satisfying to build something yourself,, then use it with success,,, knowing you didn't rely upon someone else or a company or whatever to get you what you seek.

    I've very grateful for the wonderful pictures & tutorial by BT Sniper & Darth-Vang above. Many of my questions & thoughts that were creating some confusion in my head,, have been cleared up.

    I'm new at this,, so I can't offer any advice,, except to maybe say to other newbies; "Read, Study & Learn from these very generous people who have taken the time to share their knowledge. "

  16. #216
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    I had a thought that has become a question on doing this.

    In annealing,, using a casting pot like mentioned here several times. I understand why you wouldn't want to use a pot that has already been used to melt lead/alloys.
    It was mentioned to line the pot with heavy duty aluminum foil before adding the .22 cases.

    Question; Would it be feasible or worthwhile to use a steel can that fits snugly inside the casting pot if a used pot it to be the annealing furnace? A clean steel can shouldn't melt or impart impurities etc. And it too should get to the correct temperature I'm assuming?

    Thoughts? Comments? Yea or nay?

  17. #217
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    Anybody with thoughts on using a steel can inside a furnace to anneal brass?

  18. #218
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    I think you can clean a lead pot formally used for melting lead enough to render it suitable to anneal brass casings for converting to bullet jackets.

    A steel can maybe alright as long as is not soldered together. I would be concerned with concentrating the brass cases in too confined an area though. It is said that annealing in a lead pot already requires more stirring to ensure uniformity of heat treatment.

    Bear in mind, I am speculating here since I have not sized or annealed my first jacket yet.

    Best regards

    Three44s
    Quote Originally Posted by Bret4207

    “There is more to this than dumping lead in a hole.”

  19. #219
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    I just finished this whole thread. Do I get a diploma?

    Just kidding!

    I first want to thank all who have contributed thus far. There is a lot of serious commitment shown here by many members!

    Beyond that, I just want to comment on the decision to invest in bullet swaging:

    Way back in the early nineties I recall reading about the Corbin die products. I fantasized about "getting into it" someday!

    Well my ship finally sailed a month ago when a set of BTSimple dies for 22 caliber became available slightly used at a considerable savings (about one third of new).

    Nothing against BT Sniper but at the new price, it just was out of my reach but under the above circumstances and with good timing to boot, I dove in!

    At the cost of my die set, I can easily justify the added work and toil when I envision future shortages (we can bet on them).

    Will I use factory bullets? You bet when they are reasonably priced. But if my handmade bullets are within spitting distance in the accuracy department ..... not so much!

    Three44s
    Quote Originally Posted by Bret4207

    “There is more to this than dumping lead in a hole.”

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